Capacitance with changes in dielectric material

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the effect of introducing a dielectric material, specifically a piece of glass, between two conductors on the capacitance of the system. Participants explore the relationship between the position of the dielectric and the resulting changes in capacitance, considering both theoretical and mathematical aspects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Technical explanation, Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that the change in capacitance due to the dielectric depends on its position relative to the conductors, proposing that placing it far away results in negligible changes.
  • Another participant explains that while capacitance is related to the electric field, it is typically not necessary to consider the electric field directly when calculating capacitance in static configurations.
  • A participant clarifies that the introduction of the dielectric will alter both the electric field and the potential, thus affecting capacitance.
  • There is a query about quantifying the change in capacitance as a function of the dielectric's position, with a hypothesis that this sensitivity might relate to the magnitude of the electric field.
  • Participants discuss the need for knowledge of the shape and location of the conductors to quantify changes in capacitance accurately.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree that the position of the dielectric affects capacitance, but there is no consensus on how to quantify this effect or the specific relationship to the electric field. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the exact mathematical formulation of this relationship.

Contextual Notes

Limitations include the dependence on the specific configurations of the conductors and the dielectric material, as well as the assumptions made about the electric field and potential in different scenarios.

mnb96
Messages
711
Reaction score
5
Hello,

Let's consider a capacitor simply made of two conductors with arbitrary shape in the vacuum (http://www.kshitij-iitjee.com/Study/Physics/Part4/Chapter26/3.jpg).
Now, if I place a small piece of dielectric material (for example a tiny sphere of glass) between the two conductors, the capacitance changes.

However, it seems to me that the observed change in capacitance depends on the position of the piece of glass. If I hypothetically place the piece of glass very far away from both conductors, the change in capacitance will be basically negligible.

Is it so that the change in capacitance is somewhat proportional to the magnitude of the electric field? If so, how can I prove it mathematically?
 
Physics news on Phys.org
mnb96 said:
Is it so that the change in capacitance is somewhat proportional to the magnitude of the electric field? If so, how can I prove it mathematically?
The capacitance of an arbitrarily shaped conductor can be written as
$$C=\frac{q}{V}=\int\frac{dq}{V}=\int\frac{\sigma da}{V}$$
where ##\sigma## is the surface charge density and ##V## is the electrical potential. ##V## is related to the electric field by
$$\mathbf{E}=-\nabla V$$
So yes, the capacitance is related to the electric field between the conductors however it is generally not necessary to know ##\mathbf{E}## since we are only concerned with the potential at the surface of the conductor.
$$V=\frac{1}{4\pi\epsilon}\int_{S}\frac{\sigma da}{r}$$
So ##V## is only dependent on the shape of the surface ##S##, the permittivity ##\epsilon##, ##\sigma##. When this is plugged into the above equation for ##C##, the dependence on the charge density usually cancels out so the capacitance tends to be only a function of ##\epsilon## and the shape of the conductor ##S##.
 
Hi NFuller,

thanks for your reply.
I have the feeling that you answered a different question than the one I asked. You basically explained why capacitance in a "static" configuration does not in general depend on E.

The scenario I was describing in my OP was the following: I was considering two completely different configurations: 1) two conductors in the vacuum, 2) the same two conductors with a small piece of glass placed between them. We probably agree that the capacitance in the latter configuration will be slightly different than the capacitance in the first configuration. Hence, if we switch from configuration #1 to configuration #2, we would observe a change in capacitance.

At this point I was observing that, intuitively, this change in capacitance must be dependent on the position of the piece of glass: if I place the piece of glass right between the two conductors, then I would expect a reasonable change in capacitance; while if I put the piece of glass one kilometer away from both conductors I would not expect any significant change.

This position-dependence made me suspect that the change in capacitance is somehow related to the intensity of the electric field, but I am not sure of this. That's why I was asking for help.
 
Last edited:
mnb96 said:
You basically explained why capacitance in a "static" configuration does not in general depend on E.
I did not say that. I showed that the capacitance does depend on ##\mathbf{E}## but noted that ##\mathbf{E}## is not usually considered when solving these problems.

When you stick the piece of glass in between the conductors both ##\mathbf{E}## and ##V## will change so capacitance can also change.
 
NFuller said:
When you stick the piece of glass in between the conductors both ##\mathbf{E}## and ##V## will change so capacitance can also change.

Ok. Any hint about my original question about the change in capacitance being dependent on the position of the piece of glass?
 
mnb96 said:
Ok. Any hint about my original question about the change in capacitance being dependent on the position of the piece of glass?
Yes, the position is also important since this will affect ##\mathbf{E}## and ##V##.
 
Thanks. We are slowly getting to the point of my question:

mnb96 said:
...if I place the piece of glass right between the two conductors, then I would expect a reasonable change in capacitance; while if I put the piece of glass one kilometer away from both conductors I would not expect any significant change.

Is there a way to quantify the amount of change in capacitance as a function of the position of the piece of glass?

What I want to obtain is basically a scalar field that would represent the "sensitivity" of the original capacitor to changes in the medium. My guess was that such "sensitivity" would be somewhat proportional to |E|, but I might be wrong.
 
mnb96 said:
Is there a way to quantify the amount of change in capacitance as a function of the position of the piece of glass?
Yes, see the equations in post #2. You will need to know the shape and location of the conductors to do this.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 13 ·
Replies
13
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
4K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
7K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
1K
  • · Replies 2 ·
Replies
2
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
6K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
3K