Conditions for curvature singularity

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the conditions for the existence of curvature singularities in the context of general relativity. Participants explore the relationship between the metric determinant and curvature singularities, as well as the criteria for identifying such singularities versus coordinate singularities.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • FD questions whether a vanishing metric determinant is a necessary condition for a curvature singularity, suggesting it might be insufficient and inquiring about the relevance of the Kretschmann scalar.
  • bcrowell argues that a vanishing metric determinant is neither necessary nor sufficient for a curvature singularity, explaining that singularities are not points in spacetime where metric properties can be evaluated.
  • bcrowell provides an example of a flat spacetime where the metric determinant can become degenerate due to coordinate choices, emphasizing that the Kretschmann scalar blowing up is sufficient but not necessary for identifying a curvature singularity.
  • FD seeks clarification on the minimal conditions required to prove a curvature singularity as opposed to a coordinate singularity.
  • bcrowell notes that there is no simple answer for a technique to test for singularities applicable in all cases, referencing Carroll's work for further insights.
  • bcrowell states that the standard definition of a singularity involves geodesic incompleteness, where some geodesics cannot be extended beyond a finite affine parameter.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the necessity and sufficiency of the metric determinant in relation to curvature singularities. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the minimal conditions for proving curvature singularities.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge the complexity of defining singularities and the potential for coordinate singularities to complicate the analysis. The discussion highlights the limitations of existing definitions and techniques in various contexts.

FunkyDwarf
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Hi All,

I was wondering if it is correct to say that a vanishing metric determinant is a necessary (but probably not sufficient) condition for a curvature singularity to exist at some point(s), or is one forced to construct the full Kretschmann scalar?

Cheers!
FD
 
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It's neither necessary nor sufficient.

It can't be necessary, because if there is a curvature singularity, then the singularity isn't even considered to be a point in the spacetime. Therefore there is no way to talk about the metric's determinant at that "point." The equivalence principle guarantees that even at points that lie at an arbitrarily small affine distance from the singularity, the metric's determinant is perfectly normal.

It's not sufficient, because for example it's possible to have a flat spacetime and have its metric determinant become degenerate at any arbitrarily chosen point, if you make a perverse choice of coordinates. Here's an example: http://lightandmatter.com/html_books/genrel/ch06/ch06.html#Section6.4

If the Kretschmann scalar blows up, that's sufficient but not necessary to prove a curvature singularity.

The standard formulation of GR can't even describe changes of signature, although some others, like the Ashtekar formulation, apparently can. It's not obvious to me that this can have any physical significance, because it's not obvious to me that the signature is measurable. E.g., if the signature was not +--- but ---- somewhere, then there would be no timelike dimension there, but I don't think you can measure anything if there's no time. Measurement requires collecting and processing information, so that at some later time you have more information than you had before.
 
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Hi bcrowell, thanks for the reply/info.

What would then be the minimal condition to prove a curvature singularity (as opposed ofc to a coordinate singularity).
 
FunkyDwarf said:
Hi bcrowell, thanks for the reply/info.

What would then be the minimal condition to prove a curvature singularity (as opposed ofc to a coordinate singularity).

If you're asking for a technique for testing for a singularity, I don't think there's any simple answer that works in all cases. Carroll has a good discussion of this, IIRC. There is a free online version of his book.

If you're asking for a definition, then I think the standard definition is that a singularity exists when you have geodesic incompleteness, meaning that some geodesics can't be extended past a certain finite affine parameter.
 
Ok, I have his notes somewhere and can have a dig around, thanks!
 

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