Control problem. Transfer function given. Sketch Bode plot

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around sketching the Bode plot for a control system characterized by the transfer function H(s)=10/(s^2+11s+10). Participants explore the amplitude and phase diagrams, as well as the bandwidth of the system, while seeking to understand the underlying principles of Bode plots in the context of second-order systems.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents the transfer function and requests a Bode plot, noting the need for a step-by-step algorithm to understand the process.
  • Another participant explains the frequency response by substituting s with jw, deriving expressions for H(jω) at small and large ω, and discusses the phase behavior of the system.
  • Some participants express confusion regarding the phase calculation, specifically how H(jω) = 10/10 results in a phase of 0 and H(jω) = 10/(-ω^2) results in a phase of -π.
  • A later reply clarifies that the phase of a negative real number is π radians, and discusses the process of dividing complex numbers to determine the resulting phase angle.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the process of analyzing the transfer function and the behavior of the phase at different frequencies. However, there is some confusion and debate regarding the interpretation of phase angles, particularly in the context of negative values.

Contextual Notes

Some assumptions regarding the definitions of phase and magnitude in complex analysis are not fully explored, and there may be unresolved mathematical steps in the derivation of the Bode plot.

rowardHoark
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1. For the control system described by the transfer function H(s)=Y(s)/U(s)=10/(s^2+11s+10) Sketch the bode plot: amplitude and phase diagram. What is the bandwidth of the system?



2.
General form of a second order system H(s)=wn^2/(s^2+2*zeta*wn*s+wn^2)
Magnitude characteristic in logarithmic form is A(w)[dB]=-20log[(2*zeta*w/wn)^2+(1-w^2/wn^2)^2]^0.5
The phase of second-order system is theta(w)=-tan^(-1) [2*zeta*w/wn]/[1-(w/wn)^2]




3.
I really want to understand the algorithm (step by step process) how to do this.

1. Using the general form of a transfer function, I can find resonance frequency wn=10^0.5. I use it as my cut of frequency when plotting magnitude. Before wn magnitude is a straight line at 0 dB. After wn=10^0.5 it is a line going down.
I can also find zeta, which is = 11/(2*10^0.5). I know that it influences the shape of the function near the corner frequency.
No ideas how to do the phase plot though.


 
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H(s)=\frac{10}{s^2+11s+10}
As you probably know, bode plots deal with frequency response, so s = jw
H(j\omega)=\frac{10}{(j\omega)^2+11j\omega+10}
H(j\omega)=\frac{10}{-\omega^2 + 11\omega j + 10}
When w is extremely small, the equation becomes
H(j\omega) = \frac{10}{10} = 1
which has a phase of 0.
when omega is very big we have
H(j\omega)= \frac{10}{-\omega^2}
which has a phase of -pihttp://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanic...ntrol-i-spring-2005/exams/secondorderbode.pdf

from google, here is an example. You can see the angles start at 0 degrees and approach -180 degrees or -pi radians, as we just explored. This is how all phases for second order underdamped systems will turn out. The larger zeta is, the faster the transition from 0 to -pi.
 
xcvxcvvc said:
H(s)=\frac{10}{s^2+11s+10}
As you probably know, bode plots deal with frequency response, so s = jw
H(j\omega)=\frac{10}{(j\omega)^2+11j\omega+10}
H(j\omega)=\frac{10}{-\omega^2 + 11\omega j + 10}
When w is extremely small, the equation becomes
H(j\omega) = \frac{10}{10} = 1
which has a phase of 0.
when omega is very big we have
H(j\omega)= \frac{10}{-\omega^2}
which has a phase of -pi


http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanic...ntrol-i-spring-2005/exams/secondorderbode.pdf

from google, here is an example. You can see the angles start at 0 degrees and approach -180 degrees or -pi radians, as we just explored. This is how all phases for second order underdamped systems will turn out. The larger zeta is, the faster the transition from 0 to -pi.

Thank you for some useful insights.
However, I can understand why H(j\omega) = \frac{10}{10} = 1 results in phase 0 and H(j\omega)= \frac{10}{-\omega^2} in phase -pi ?
 
rowardHoark said:
Thank you for some useful insights.
However, I can understand why H(j\omega) = \frac{10}{10} = 1 results in phase 0 and H(j\omega)= \frac{10}{-\omega^2} in phase -pi ?

omega is just a real-valued number. What is the phase of a negative, real-valued number? It is pi radians (aka on the negative real axis). However, we are dividing by this negative, real number. When you divide a complex numerator by a complex denominator, you do regular division of the numerator's and denominator's magnitudes and you subtract their angles.

In that example, you do |10|/|-w| = 10/w to find the new magnitude. 10 has an angle of 0 and -w has an angle of pi (remember that we are dealing with positive omegas). So 0 - pi = -pi
 

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