Control systems: Simplifying block diagram

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around simplifying a block diagram to a standard first order form, specifically addressing the transfer function of a control system. Participants explore methods to derive the transfer function using Mason's rule and express it in the form h = K/(1+tD).

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents an equation derived from the block diagram and seeks confirmation on its correctness while asking how to express it in standard first order form.
  • Another participant suggests using Mason's rule to calculate the transfer function for the inner loop and then for the outer loop, indicating that the characteristic equation will lead to a specific form for τ.
  • A participant expresses uncertainty about how to demonstrate that the system is first order and requests clarification on reaching the desired form.
  • One response indicates that showing the transfer function in the standard form may not be necessary and provides an alternative expression for h(s) based on Mason's rule.
  • Another participant questions the correctness of a previous equation, specifically regarding the feedback component in the equation.
  • A later reply provides a steady state gain calculation from the derived transfer function, indicating a method to evaluate it as s approaches zero.
  • One participant expresses understanding of the previous contributions after receiving assistance.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on whether the standard first order form must be shown, as some suggest it is not necessary while others focus on achieving that form. There is also uncertainty regarding the correctness of specific equations and feedback terms.

Contextual Notes

Participants express varying levels of understanding and clarity regarding the steps to simplify the block diagram and derive the transfer function. Some assumptions about the system's behavior and the definitions of terms are not fully articulated.

MattH150197
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Homework Statement


How to show a block diagram can be simplified to a standard first order form for the diagram shown in the image attached and the question is shown in 1.a

Homework Equations


Standard first order form K/(1+tD) where K gain and t is time constant

The Attempt at a Solution

[/B]
So i got ((Kb*H-h)*Kp-4)*1/2s = h Is this correct? and how do i show it in standard first order form from here? Thanks
 

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Figure 1 shows two closed loops: An inner and an outer loop.

Use Mason's rule to calculate the transfer function as for the inner loop.

Insert this inner transfer function in the outer loop and use Mason again to calculate h(s)/H(s) for the outer loop ( the transfer function for the outer loop ).

The characteristic equation for h(s)/H(s) will be in the form:

as + b = 0 → τ = b / a.
 
Enlarged image of diagram as requested
 

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Hesch sorry I am not quite sure how from what youve said i can show it is a first order system as i need to show it in the form h = K/(1+tD), I am just not sure how to get there from what i worked out
 
MattH150197 said:
i need to show it in the form h = K/(1+tD)

You don't need to show in this form.

Using Mason you should get:

h(s)/H(s) = Kp * Kb / ( 2s + 4 + Kp ) →

h(s) = H(s) * Kp * Kb / ( 2s + 4 + Kp )
( if you wish )
 
MattH150197 said:
So i got ((Kb*H-h)*Kp-4)*1/2s = h Is this correct?
I think it's nearly there; Check what's fed back via the "4" block. That 4 looks mighty lonely in your equation, given that the term its being summed with is bound to have some units associated with it... :smile: .
 
Hesch said:
h(s) = H(s) * Kp * Kb / ( 2s + 4 + Kp )
To determine the steady state gain from the above equation, let s → 0, so

h(0) = H(0) * Kp * Kb / ( 4 + Kp )
 
Ah yeah i understand what you have done now actually Hesch, thanks for the help guys.
 

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