Countermeasures for hypersonic weapons

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Countermeasures against hypersonic weapons, which travel over 1.5 km/s, face significant challenges, particularly in interception. Conventional interceptors would need to be hypersonic and highly agile to effectively counter these missiles, as they must intercept from ahead rather than chase from behind. Laser systems may struggle due to the plasma sheath surrounding hypersonic missiles, which dissipates energy. Additionally, the agility of incoming hypersonic missiles complicates interception, requiring rapid course corrections from interceptors. Overall, the discussion highlights the complexity of developing effective defenses against this advanced class of weaponry.
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  • #202
boneh3ad said:
China's approach is different, though. Their DF-ZF is intended to be used to sink carriers from stand-off range. That's a much more tactically and strategically relevant system that isn't really subject to MAD deterrence. Basically, if China decided to invade Taiwan, we wouldn't be able to safely park carriers within range (assuming the DF-ZF works as claimed).

Meanwhile, what the US is developing is intended largely to be used more like very fast Tomahawk missiles. Basically, build a large number of smaller, tactical systems that can be used for fleeting targets and in contested airspace.
Correct on both points. Most modern missile defense, whether against subsonic, supersonic, hypersonic, or exoatmospheric weapons, is predicated on predicting where the target will be at a given time. That's why it's comparatively easy to intercept an ICBM reentry vehicle (or decoy), as it's on a "fixed" path and unable to maneuver defensively, and easier to counter sub- and supersonic weapons, as the speeds are slower and you have more time for your interceptor to react. The challenge with hypersonic, especially stuff that can maneuver, is the ability of the target to maneuver in ways that make the intercept far more difficult to successfully complete. Not impossible, as you can throw enough interceptors up and guarantee you'll kill the target by simply covering all possible vectors it could use to evade, but that gets cost and resource prohibitive in a hurry. Similarly, using a big enough 'boom' can do the trick, and that was considered a viable strategy in the Cold War for the SAFEGUARD program. Sprint and Spartan both carried nuclear warheads to compensate for the challenges in using 1960s computing to intercept incoming ICBM RVs within and outside the atmosphere, respectively. Sprint, iirc, used the blast effect and the radiation pulse to effect the kill, while Spartan was exclusively a radiation kill using high x-ray flux, but that's a topic for another thread.

As for the DF-ZF, I think there's more capability in defending a US carrier battlegroup than is widely publicized, for obvious reasons, including the ability to perform a "soft" or "mission" kill on the warhead. If you kill the electronics on it with a high powered maser, for example, it can't guide to the target, right? I don't know exactly how much power the current radars on the Arleigh Burkes are, but my dad used to do work on the earlier ones, especially their power control system. (Liquid cooled vacuum tubes, if you can believe it.) He says there's enough power there to cause some serious havoc on electronic systems, and the new radars are even more powerful and capable. I suspect brighter minds than mine could figure out a way to use those huge AESA radars to fry multiple incoming warheads seekers in less time than it takes for you to read this post.

And yeah, the US is looking hard at a range of hypersonic weapons, both boost-glide and air-breathing, mainly for extended range, time sensitive strike against well defended targets. I mean, if you get actionable intel on the location of a DF-ZF TEL, you don't want to wait 2 hours for a subsonic, non-stealthy Tomahawk to cruise to the area. that TEL is gonna be long gone by the time the missile would arrive, if it ever arrives at all. But a ARRW dropped from a B-52 loitering a thousand miles out will get there in reasonable timeframes, and stand a very good chance of getting through the defenses. Or, use it to destroy air defense capabilities that could threaten something like the B-21, allowing several such aircraft to slip into enemy airspace to provide more precise targeting data for follow-on strikes. Heck, even just slamming one into a runway where they launch long-range fighters and tankers from would shut that airfield down for several valuable hours while they patch the runway up. It's no Durendal or SG-357 submunition (dedicated anti-runway weapons), but I wager it'll still crater that runway pretty well.
 
  • #203


They claim it's a hypersonic missile but who knows what it really is.
 
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  • #204
nsaspook said:
t's a hypersonic missile

In the words of Jacques Clousseau "Not any more."

 
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  • #205
It's a Kh-47M2 Kinzhal according to the Ukrainians, Russians, and Americans.

It's a missile and it travels at hypersonic speeds. But it is not the same as as the more modern maneuverable hypersonic missiles that have been the topic of discussion lately. It's the light beer of hypersonic missiles. It's more correctly an aeroballistic missile, i.e., a short range ballistic missile launched from an aircraft to give it more energy.

I am not surprised the Kinzhal can be intercepted. I'd be a lot less confident if it were one of the more modern missiles like a Russian 3M22 Tsirkon or Chinese DF-17.
 
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  • #206
boneh3ad said:
like a Russian 3M22 Tsirkon
Why are they using the Kinzhal instead of the Tsirkon? Is it mainly a supply problem?
 
  • #207
berkeman said:
Why are they using the Kinzhal instead of the Tsirkon? Is it mainly a supply problem?
Russia goes out of their way to oversell their stuff. There are probably a few reasons for that: propaganda (both domestic and international), no one willing to tell the boss bad news, etc. They do that with the Kinzhal, but it appears increasingly likely those have now been depantsed as still being relatively standard SRBMs with a bit of a speed boost.

Tsirkon is a much larger technical challenge and much more expensive. It's been debated in public whether they are even truly operational yet, and even if they are, how many Russia even has in stock. Maybe non-public sources know more, but obviously that information isn't just floating around or freely accessible (though, in fairness, I haven't checked any War Thunder forums lately 🤣). I believe they are also primarily anti-ship missiles.
 
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  • #209
nsaspook said:

Interesting graphic:
1684275571807.png
 
  • #210
nsaspook said:
I'm pretty impressed by the anti-missile defense network. Old man Patriot looked pretty good.
https://www.businessinsider.com/pat...l-hypersonic-ballistic-missile-experts-2023-5

Russia's Kinzhal was never an unstoppable hypersonic missile, but killing one with a Patriot is still 'impressive,'​

Kinzhal was never a superweapon. But Patriot has a history of being seriously oversold (e.g., in the Gulf War when it was sold as having a nearly 100% success rate against Scuds and apparently had a nearly 0% success rate in reality). So to me this is very interesting because it's a very public demonstration of how much improvement these systems have had.
 
  • #211
boneh3ad said:
Russia goes out of their way to oversell their stuff.
Yes they do. The Moskva was an invincible flagship. Now it's an artificial reef at the bottom of the Black Sea.
 
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  • #212
boneh3ad said:
Kinzhal was never a superweapon. But Patriot has a history of being seriously oversold (e.g., in the Gulf War when it was sold as having a nearly 100% success rate against Scuds and apparently had a nearly 0% success rate in reality). So to me this is very interesting because it's a very public demonstration of how much improvement these systems have had.
It's worth noting that PAC-3 is almost an entirely different weapons system than the Gulf War era Patriot. It follows the US tradition of keeping the same name for a system even when basically everything about it has been redesigned.

Unlike Patriot Classic, Pac-3 has an active radar seeker (in the missile itself), uses small maneuvering rockets for terminal maneuvering rather than aerodynamic forces, and is hit-to-kill rather than proximity fused. It is shorter range, but it's been heavily optimized for terminal defense against short to medium range ballistic missiles like Kinzhal/Iskander, and we've been testing it against aeroballistic targets like Boosted Zombie (basically an ATACMS converted to be a target missile on top of a Terrier booster). It's probably one of the best shorter range air defense systems in existence.
 
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  • #213
Vanadium 50 said:
Yes they do. The Moskva was an invincible flagship. Now it's an artificial reef at the bottom of the Black Sea.
As some guys I fly with in DCS would put it. "It has been promoted from surface combatant to submarine."
 
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