COVID COVID-19 Coronavirus Containment Efforts

[AlexCaledin]

- careless people are in danger because of the careless behavior which is indicated by getting no vaccine.

 

[Jarvis323]

I think this graph, and a careful analysis of what was happening throughout this timeline can help to understand why CT's CFR might be so high and whether peoples attitudes towards science and trust in health officials might have affected covid's impact. Key events are when testing became available and widespread, when people realized that masks were useful, when people realized that asymptomatic transmission was a concern, when people realized that airborn transmission was a concern, the availability of medical supplies, when breakthroughs were made in treatment protocols, when vaccines became available, when the population became vaccinated in large numbers. A useful plot to make would be this one superimposed with the number of people vaccinated over time.

Most state's graphs look similar to the US average.

 

[mfb]

The plots show what we already knew. Vaccines work, and everyone would benefit from higher vaccination rates.

What the news report showed, what I was not aware of, is how fanatic the anti-vaccination sentiment can be in some communities.

 

[Borg]

Maybe someone could invent a vaccine that's exhaled by those who have been vaccinated with it resulting in the vaccination of the unvaccinated. After all, if they think that it's OK for them to spew pathogens...

 

[PeroK]

Maybe someone could invent a vaccine that's exhaled by those who have been vaccinated with it resulting in the vaccination of the unvaccinated. After all, if they think that it's OK for them to spew pathogens...

That would get the anti-vaxxers wearing a mask!

 

[atyy]

Maybe someone could invent a vaccine that's exhaled by those who have been vaccinated with it resulting in the vaccination of the unvaccinated. After all, if they think that it's OK for them to spew pathogens...

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/cansinobio-inhaled-covid-19-vaccine-trigger-immune-response-15317564
Not quite what you are looking for, but ...

 

[Borg]

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/asia/cansinobio-inhaled-covid-19-vaccine-trigger-immune-response-15317564
Not quite what you are looking for, but ...

My thoughts came from a similar article in Scientific American last month. I was thinking at the time that companies could install machines to automatically mist people with the vaccine as they came in. I know that it violates a ton of personal freedoms but I'm getting less and less concerned with the freedoms of the ignorant these days.

 

[Borg]

That would get the anti-vaxxers wearing a mask!

I was thinking more in line with the conspiracies it would generate but that sounds better.

 

[Borg]

Maybe someone could invent a vaccine that's exhaled by those who have been vaccinated with it resulting in the vaccination of the unvaccinated. After all, if they think that it's OK for them to spew pathogens...

I just realized the perfect argument if they think that it's wrong to do that - my body, my choice.

 

[nsaspook]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw...-19-lockdown-enforcement-20210729-p58e5e.html

Defence Force called into help with Sydney COVID-19 lockdown enforcement​

The Australian Defence Force will assist with enforcement of Sydney’s lockdown following a formal request to Prime Minister Scott Morrison from NSW Police.

While NSW has previously declined an offer for military assistance with the operation to enforce COVID-19 public health orders, police said an escalation of efforts over the coming days justified the request.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-30/adf-soldiers-to-arrive-in-sydney-covid19-lockdown/100336124

"They don't come with powers and they won't be carrying firearms but they come with an enormous amount of training, very disciplined, they understand the task."

They wouldn't be deployed if the implied force of military action wasn't projected.

 

[Astronuc]

Meanwhile in Florida, cases are increasing to levels approaching those of last summer.

Florida hospitals reported more than 8,900 patients with COVID-19 on Thursday, according to data from the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services. The Florida Hospital Association said the state peaked at 10,179 cases last July.

The patient number on Thursday was five times higher than a month ago, and it quickly climbed from about 5,500 in just one week.

https://apnews.com/article/business...rus-pandemic-95de3c470432eb61ee7450cf99ba7aef

AdventHealth said Thursday it had reached a new high on Thursday since the pandemic began with about 1,000 COVID-19 hospitalized patients across its system in central Florida. Twelve hospitals in the state are reporting critical staffing shortages to the federal government.

The rapid rise in hospitalizations and cases has prompted officials in Miami-Dade and Orlando to issue new orders requiring masks at indoor county buildings. The mayor of Orange County, home to Walt Disney World, is forcing all nonunion county employees to get vaccinated by August.

And Walt Disney World also announced this week that it would again be requiring the use of masks indoors.

The AP article also reports that last month, June, Florida stopped providing daily figures of cases and deaths, switching to weekly reports. The number of vaccinations are reported, but hospitalizations for COVID-19 aren't so readily available.

 

[gleem]

The CDC estimates that the R0 for the Delta variant is 8-9 as infectable as chickenpox.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/07/29/politics/cdc-masks-covid-19-infections/index.html

 

[Bystander]

for the Delta variant is 8-9 as infectable as chickenpox.

Tangential question: do parents still conduct/organize "chickenpox parties" for their children, conferring immunity to smallpox?

 

[PeterDonis]

I know that it violates a ton of personal freedoms but I'm getting less and less concerned with the freedoms of the ignorant these days.

A government that can violate the freedom of those you consider ignorant today can just as easily consider you ignorant tomorrow and violate yours.

Also, if the rhetoric we are hearing is true, the people who are getting COVID-19 and becoming seriously ill or dying are the unvaccinated, so the people who you say are ignorant are paying the price for their ignorance. Which is exactly how freedom is supposed to work.

 

[Borg]

A government that can violate the freedom of those you consider ignorant today can just as easily consider you ignorant tomorrow and violate yours.

Also, if the rhetoric we are hearing is true, the people who are getting COVID-19 and becoming seriously ill or dying are the unvaccinated, so the people who you say are ignorant are paying the price for their ignorance. Which is exactly how freedom is supposed to work.

Agree 100%. It's hard to properly express certain emotions online but I'm mainly very frustrated with these people - some of whom I'm related to.

 

[jack action]

but I'm mainly very frustrated with these people

Why?

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Also, if the rhetoric we are hearing is true, the people who are getting COVID-19 and becoming seriously ill or dying are the unvaccinated, so the people who you say are ignorant are paying the price for their ignorance. Which is exactly how freedom is supposed to work.

I think the difference is many of these people are victims of nefarious misinformation schemes under the guise of advocating for "freedom".

 

[WWGD]

A government that can violate the freedom of those you consider ignorant today can just as easily consider you ignorant tomorrow and violate yours.

Also, if the rhetoric we are hearing is true, the people who are getting COVID-19 and becoming seriously ill or dying are the unvaccinated, so the people who you say are ignorant are paying the price for their ignorance. Which is exactly how freedom is supposed to work.

This is where personal freedom of the west is over-rated and Chinese-style authoritarianism seems to work better. And this from a little-l libertarian.

 

[WWGD]

This is where personal freedom of the west is over-rated and Chinese-style authoritarianism seems to work better. And this from a little-l libertarian.

All I mean is that there are no clear answers as in one of the two choices is best as a blanket statement. At least I don't see one.

 

[PeterDonis]

I think the difference is many of these people are victims of nefarious misinformation schemes under the guise of advocating for "freedom".

Freedom does not mean there is no misinformation. It means it's up to each individual person to choose what information they will act on. Yes, there will be people that choose to act on unreliable information. That's a fact of life. And curtailing people's freedoms does not solve that problem, because first, no authority, whether it's government or anyone else, can control all of the people all of the time, and second, authorities propagate and act on unreliable information too.

I also don't think all misinformation is "nefarious". People can have plenty of honest reasons for spreading or acting on information that turns out to be unreliable. I think we would all be a lot better off if everybody would stop demonizing people who have different opinions and stop trying to insist that any source of information should be taken as authoritative. In terms of my Insights article on "Is Science an Authority", I think a lot of the information that is being put out in the name of "Science" does not meet the requirements I gave in that article. I stress that this, in itself, is not a "failure" of "Science"--it is what we should expect in a field that is still in the early stages of development and in the midst of a situation that is rapidly changing. I think it would be better if everyone would just admit that no, "Science" cannot give us reliable guidance about a lot of what is going on in this situation, and we need to fall back on common sense, what scientific knowledge we do have (which can still help guide our common sense even if it can't give us authoritative guidance), and individual freedom and responsibility.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Somehow we have the personal freedom to drive a car and kill someone, but get prosecuted, but we also have the personal freedom to reject a vaccine and likely kill many and be praised for it.

 

[PeterDonis]

we also have the personal freedom to reject a vaccine and likely kill many

"Likely kill many" is way, way, way too strong; it is an example of exactly the sort of demonizing of other people who hold different opinions that I said we should not be doing in my previous post just now.

I reject your analogy with a person driving a car who causes a fatal accident. An unvaccinated person who always wears a mask in public, social distances, and takes the other common sense precautions does not pose a significant threat to others, any more than a driver who practices safe driving techniques.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

Freedom does not mean there is no misinformation. It means it's up to each individual person to choose what information they will act on. Yes, there will be people that choose to act on unreliable information. That's a fact of life. And curtailing people's freedoms does not solve that problem, because first, no authority, whether it's government or anyone else, can control all of the people all of the time, and second, authorities propagate and act on unreliable information too.

I also don't think all misinformation is "nefarious". People can have plenty of honest reasons for spreading or acting on information that turns out to be unreliable. I think we would all be a lot better off if everybody would stop demonizing people who have different opinions and stop trying to insist that any source of information should be taken as authoritative. In terms of my Insights article on "Is Science an Authority", I think a lot of the information that is being put out in the name of "Science" does not meet the requirements I gave in that article. I stress that this, in itself, is not a "failure" of "Science"--it is what we should expect in a field that is still in the early stages of development and in the midst of a situation that is rapidly changing. I think it would be better if everyone would just admit that no, "Science" cannot give us reliable guidance about a lot of what is going on in this situation, and we need to fall back on common sense, what scientific knowledge we do have (which can still help guide our common sense even if it can't give us authoritative guidance), and individual freedom and responsibility.

And this ends up highlighting inequality. Certain socio-geo-economic areas are predisposed to accept misinformation. We should just shrug our shoulders? Sucks for them? Bad cards in life mate. Misinformation is not just bad information, but it implies intent. The intent of bad information is nefarious.

 

[gleem]

Tangential question: do parents still conduct/organize "chickenpox parties" for their children, conferring immunity to smallpox?

CDC warns against this practice because of possible life-threatening consequences of an infection.

 

[WWGD]

"Likely kill many" is way, way, way too strong; it is an example of exactly the sort of demonizing of other people who hold different opinions that I said we should not be doing in my previous post just now.

I reject your analogy with a person driving a car who causes a fatal accident. An unvaccinated person who always wears a mask in public, social distances, and takes the other common sense precautions does not pose a significant threat to others, any more than a driver who practices safe driving techniques.

But do you extend this to differences of opinions re the effectiveness of vaccinations? Evidence for its benefits seems overwhelming and uncontroversial.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

"Likely kill many" is way, way, way too strong; it is an example of exactly the sort of demonizing of other people who hold different opinions that I said we should not be doing in my previous post just now.

I reject your analogy with a person driving a car who causes a fatal accident. An unvaccinated person who always wears a mask in public, social distances, and takes the other common sense precautions does not pose a significant threat to others, any more than a driver who practices safe driving techniques.

So if I am driving like a maniac, my excuse to the police is that I am not likely to kill anyone, "why are you trying to demonize me Mr. police officer for my opinion"? There are many required vaccines for children to get enrolled in schools. Is that a mistake? Are we violating their rights to protect our greater good?

 

[PeterDonis]

Certain socio-geo-economic areas are predisposed to accept misinformation. We should just shrug our shoulders? Sucks for them?

If you want to help such people, by all means point them at information that you consider more reliable. And help them to learn the skills they need to make up their own minds. You could even point them at my Insights article that I referenced before, as an example of how to judge conflicting claims. You are free to take whatever actions you choose to take. That's part of freedom.

Misinformation is not just bad information, but it implies intent.

Then I reject your claim that "many" people who are hesitant to get vaccinated are the victims of misinformation. (Actually, "many" is ambiguous; I suspect you meant "the vast majority". If you didn't, then your claim is not precise enough for me to say much about it.) They may be acting on unreliable information (though even there you are assuming that there is no reliable information that could make a person hesitant about getting vaccinated), but that is not the same as information spread with the intent to mislead. Proving intent is a much higher bar to clear than just showing that information is unreliable. And making accusations of bad intent when you cannot possibly prove it is, again, the sort of demonizing that I think we would be much better off not doing.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

If you want to help such people, by all means point them at information that you consider more reliable. And help them to learn the skills they need to make up their own minds. You could even point them at my Insights article that I referenced before, as an example of how to judge conflicting claims. You are free to take whatever actions you choose to take. That's part of freedom.

Not trying to commit to many logical fallacies, but would that tactic be possible for the North Korean people? Propaganda and indoctrination damage is just a matter of scale. Somehow you are okay with it at a smaller scale?

Then I reject your claim that "many" people who are hesitant to get vaccinated are the victims of misinformation. (Actually, "many" is ambiguous; I suspect you meant "the vast majority". If you didn't, then your claim is not precise enough for me to say much about it.) They may be acting on unreliable information (though even there you are assuming that there is no reliable information that could make a person hesitant about getting vaccinated), but that is not the same as information spread with the intent to mislead. Proving intent is a much higher bar to clear than just showing that information is unreliable. And making accusations of bad intent when you cannot possibly prove it is, again, the sort of demonizing that I think we would be much better off not doing.

Fair enough, but, I can also imagine a scenario where those with a pristine and admirable adherence to logical ideals will find themselves someday alive but alone in a graveyard of the world. Dramatic? Of course, but my creative point is made :)

 

[WWGD]

I remember being in conversations about most pressing problems of humanity. Most would bring up the likes of terrorism, the environment, etc., which are indeed pressing. I brought up the inability of so many of us to disagree in reasonable, civil , constructive ways, which creates a serious barrier to the solution of many problems.

 

[WWGD]

Changing (sub)topic direction, now India seems to have somewhat controlled its situation in terms of deaths and number of cases but Indonesia has been having 1,000+ deaths for some 5 days in a row.