Creating a Working Prototype of Armor to Move with You

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Creating a working prototype of armor that moves with the wearer presents significant technical challenges, primarily related to power supply and weight. The integration of electronics and synthetic muscle materials could enhance movement but would increase production costs. Current synthetic muscle technologies, like carbon nanotubes, show promise for creating lightweight and powerful actuators. However, the practicality of powering such armor remains a concern, as traditional power sources may be too heavy and cumbersome for effective use. Ultimately, while advancements are being made, the feasibility of fully operational powered armor for everyday use is still uncertain.
  • #31
Originally posted by russ_watters
I've never heard of anyone building a robot with bipedal locomotion - its a daunting engineering challenge.

Then you have not been paying attention. Heck, I've done it myself, although it wasn't very fancy. Kids toys have involved bipedal locomotion for decades. Didn't you ever have a walking toy robot as a kid?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3330183.stm
 
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  • #32
Greetings !

An automatic and computarized unmanned small tank unit
could indeed be very usefull. However, close range and urban
combat environments are much too complex and require
relatively great amounts of improvisation and many
different capabilities. Also, control of such a unit would
be difficult in such an environment, and I don't suppose
anybody thinks of sending out such killer robots without
the ability of constant contact with them and the
ability to change their targets/shut them down if and
when it is needed.

EMP wave emmiters can disrupt the systems of advanced
military fighter planes today. There should be no problem
for more advanced disruptors to destroy delicate computer
circuitry within such automatic tanks. Of course, it
depends on who it is you intend to use them against -
many countries are unlikely to possesses such equipment
in significant amounts in the near future.

A powered exoskeleton can work without multiple sophisticated
computers and thus be much less vulnerable when such
EM weapons are used. As for the armor, like I said before,
they're unlikely to be able to indure more than a bit
of light weapons fire - however, that much is indeed
possible. As for more than that, the whole idea is that
in the appropriate - urban environment, they'll be too quick,
too stealthy, and too adaptable to allow precise targeting
with rocket propelled grenade launchers or medium callibur
automatic machine guns and sniper rifles.

The stealth part, btw, hasn't been mentioned here so far
if I'm not mistaken. Such a unit could easily have the
ability to change it's color (such technologies are
availible today) and remain much less visible to infrared
scanners and night vision equipement - which is quite
widely used by any advanced military today.

Of course, again, all that will happen only if someone
can build some really cool batterries. Fortunetly, there
are lots of more important commercial reasons to develop
such power sources today, so we'll have to wait and see.

Live long and prosper.
 
  • #33
Originally posted by Adam
Then you have not been paying attention. Heck, I've done it myself, although it wasn't very fancy. Kids toys have involved bipedal locomotion for decades. Didn't you ever have a walking toy robot as a kid?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/3330183.stm
Lol, Adam, that link is only 3 weeks old! And it still has a long way to go before it can mimic real bipedal locomotion. I don't mean fixed speed on a flat surface - to be really viable, its got to be able to play basketball.
Please read the links I have already supplied. They already exist. Don't type anything unless you know what you are discussing.
The device in the link is only 17kg. Thats light enough to act as a power assist for the person using it without requiring the device to think for itself (for balance, locomotion, etc). Its not even close to the level of technology required for what we are discussing.
Why would we use deisel?
Because the application requires a lot of power - what would you use?
We're not talking about forklifts.
No, but its not an unreasonable comparison as far as weight and power go. I'm sure you wouldn't use steel for the armor, but even with kevlar, getting the weight under 1000 pounds while still being able to protect the occupant would be a monumental accomplishment.
Once again, please read the material suppled. Then post again.
Lose the attitude - you're in MY house now and I won't tolerate it.
 
  • #34
Because the application requires a lot of power - what would you use?

That is one of the problems, we don't have a power source that we could really use yet.
 
  • #35
There was an article in a recent edition of Popular Science magazine describing a pair of exoskeletal legs someone had invented for paralytics. The legs are capable of lifting 350 pounds without any muscular contribution from the wearer. Power was from a fuel cell worn on the back much like that used in the U.S. military's "land warrior" suit. This prosthesis alone would enable a foot soldier to carry a couple hundred pounds of armor and armaments while traveling as effortlessly as if he were naked.

And keep in mind, that device was only developed as a replacement for the wheelchair. A combat version built for the military could have far greater power and mobility. I think that exoskeletal armor is not only possible, but pretty inevitable.
 
  • #36
http://sanlab.kz.tsukuba.ac.jp/HAL/indexE.html to the webpage for the powered legs of which I spoke.

I've also found online that the DARPA project is proceeding on-schedule, with the legs already made and the first demonstration model slated for sometime next year (2005).
 
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  • #37
on the topic of power...

Are any of you familiar with Nikola Tesla's concept of wireless energy transmission? The power suit would not have to have it's own power supply. It would be fed power from (probably) an army relay station, or would feed off local power supplies. Sure, the power station would be a massive target and would take out all the powered armor if it were hit, but you could always have a backup, and plenty of defenses...and make it mobile. anyway, the suit could suck as much electricity as it wanted, and as long as the wearer was suitably shielded from the electromagnetic radiation, he'd probably even go on to have non mutated children.
 
  • #38
As mentioned in an earlier post, and having personal field experience with "things", it will break when needed the most and then you will have combatants unfamiliar with fighting unassisted. Unfortunately, the best thing for the job is a warm body in boots "searching, closing with and destroying the enemy by fire and assault or repelling the enemy by fire and close combat".

The only thing that never, I repeat never, broke on me was my Leatherman. The teeth on the pliers might have gotten worn from use but that's all.

E6S, out.
 
  • #39
Question: When moving things break, what is the fundamental cause? My assumption is it is air. The fact that there are hollow spaces around the moving parts makes them vulnerable. Something like human muscles work without requiring hollow spaces because they're chemical, not mechanical. So wouldn't something like that be best? Theoretically, I mean... obviously we can't do anything like that with any real power, if at all.
 
  • #40
Originally posted by CGameProgrammer
Question: When moving things break, what is the fundamental cause? My assumption is it is air. The fact that there are hollow spaces around the moving parts makes them vulnerable. Something like human muscles work without requiring hollow spaces because they're chemical, not mechanical. So wouldn't something like that be best? Theoretically, I mean... obviously we can't do anything like that with any real power, if at all.

Actually, it isn't so much caused by "air", but the empty spaces around moving parts is indeed a crucail factor. It allows the parts to collide with one another.

And "artificial muscles" have been developed. I don't know how strong they are or hoe they're powered, but once a concept has been realized by engineers, it's speed, or power, or both will increase rapidly. That is just the nature of engineering (and of engineers!).
 
  • #41
Originally posted by LURCH
Actually, it isn't so much caused by "air", but the empty spaces around moving parts is indeed a crucail factor. It allows the parts to collide with one another.
Yes, that is what I meant. If you place an axe blade onto a wooden board and push, you'll probably do nothing more than making a slight dent. But if you bring the blade back and then swing it at the board, you'll chop it in half. If things are packed together then vulnerability is minimized.

Of course that example isn't great since there's no moving parts in the first scenario, but you know what I mean.
 
  • #42
This thread is quiet... what happened to all the people?
 
  • #43
well, I think people said all they had to say on this topic. If you want to help this topic get going again, go invent a power source for us :biggrin:
 
  • #44
A good battery would provide 400 Watt-hours per kilogram. The absolute limit of efficiency would be equivalent to just having our battery move itself around. If we assume trotting movement across rough terrain, that's like bouncing a 1/2 meter twice per second. For a 1 kg battery, that's about 10 watts power. So, the absolute limit is about 40 hours of operation per charge. Electrical systems rarely have much better than 30% efficiency, let's call it 40%. We now have 16 hours of operation, and we have not put in armor, weapons, actuators or a person. Just putting actuators and armor on the batteries would about double the weight. We are now down to a limit of 8 hours operation and we have not incorporated a human or weapons or any electronic gear.

Clearly, such units could not operate without significant support logistics - refueling and resupply with ordnance. That defeats their whole advantage of mobility and concealment.

Njorl
 
  • #45
And now, possible changes that might negate my previous post.

Battery efficiency is the single greatest obstacle. Heaps of money are spent on fuel cell and battery research.

A new area of research that is getting a lot of funding is highly efficient flexible solar cells. Roll'em up and pack 'em away when fighting or moving. Spread 'em out over a half-acre to recharge.

If the energy problem is solved, the ordnance problem is solved. The more energy you can put into each round, the lighter that round can be.

Still, world peace might materialize before powered armor, and that would be fine by me.

Njorl
 
  • #46
My question would be... why? IMHO, current weapons technology is way ahead of current defense technology. The best strategy to avoid casualties with modern weapons is either to hit them first, or not to get hit. Heavy armour, even if powered, will most likely impair dexterity, and concealment. Air power seems the way forward, and infantry/tanks will probably only hold a role in consolidation, and holding down enemies. What niche would powered armour take?
 
  • #47
The many uses for a very small atomic reactor.. :)
 
  • #48
My senior design team tackled a similar problem. We essentially were to design and build an exoskeleton for lifting/loading/material handling. Here are some problems we encountered.

1. Anthropomorphics - The human body is a beautifully designed mechanical structure with amazing dexterity. Getting an exoskeleton to 'conform' to the human body while still approaching the range of mobility of a person is a massive challenge. Just think about how well you can move your hand or foot around, and imagine trying to get metal bars and joints to mimic that. Plus you would have to make this suit fit a large percentage of human adults, who obviously don't come in the same size or shape.

2. Balance - Very important and very difficult to translate the desired movement of the operator into suit movements while maintaining your balance. We solved this problem by using heavy counterweights, but that made the suit ungainly. Our suit was destined for operation on flat surfaces and slight inclines. No telling what the problem would be like for varied terrain types.

3. Power - Alot of talk has focused on this already, so it is in our minds. We settled for chemical batteries, but were looking at fuel cells also.

UC Berkeley is developing a project for the infantryman, called BLEEX
http://bleex.me.berkeley.edu/hel/bleex.htm

BLEEX is intended to help soldiers carry more in their packs while reducing soldier fatigue. You can easily see what is needed just for augmenting a person's leg movements, which is alot.

This in my opinion is as far as robotic enhancements will go for the individual soldiers. If powered armor is eventually developed, it will be large in size (bigger than a tank) and crewed by multiple soldiers. A 'Land Destroyer' if you will. It will have to be large enough to carry around it's own power source (small nuclear reactor or turbine engine). Something that large would be an impressive weapon's platform and have a devastating psychological effect on opposing forces.
 
  • #49
"My question would be... why? IMHO, current weapons technology is way ahead of current defense technology. The best strategy to avoid casualties with modern weapons is either to hit them first, or not to get hit. Heavy armour, even if powered, will most likely impair dexterity, and concealment. Air power seems the way forward, and infantry/tanks will probably only hold a role in consolidation, and holding down enemies. What niche would powered armour take?"

The whole idea is that one person in power armor is basically trying to make a person a walking tank. This would be great for mountainous terrain or urban combat. Well it would be great if we could get it to work.
 
  • #50
To recap:
Powered Armor:
It's biggest introduction to the mind of the public was in the book, Starship Troopers, in which infantry gained massive advantages of strength, speed, and physical toughness. They carried bigger, badder weapons, leapt over buildings, and sprinted as fast as a car could drive. They were the "supermen" of the army. (of course, if an army has *supermen*, why waste money on normal soldiers?)
Powered armor has been seen in comics (Iron Man) video games (Metroid, Halo, Starcraft) and has impressed us all with the advantages it gives to the wearer.
Without giving up and saying the only place for powered armor lays in the realm of science fiction, we can say that it is, in a combat-ready version, beyond our current grasp.
The armor must be reasonably light, not too bulky, and strong enough to absorb heavy combat stress without breaking down. It will likely be desired that it allow the wearer to operate in hostile environments, including places which contain biohazards, high levels of radiation, and possibly even vacuums. The soldier will need to be able to use weaponry, not the least of which are his hands and feet. The armor needs to not damage the soldier when it amplifies his speed and strength.
We're talking about
either EXTREMELY high grade servos or synthetic muscles.
lightweight, sensitive sensory equipment, both internal and external
modular construction, for body sizing and repair.
Power. Either a way to relay power to the suit wirelessly by the boatload or a really high quality chemical fuel cell or a mini fusion reactor that hasn't been invented yet.
Hella huge amounts of money for R&D, production, and recruiting reallllly talented people to make it all happen.

Next Post: WEAPONS!
(kidding) but it'd be pretty sweet for them to carry around railguns or gauss cannons...not that those aren't virtually the same thing or anything...

on an editing note... wouldn't it be easier to upgrade our soldiers without sticking them in powered armor? metal grafts onto their skeletons, muscle enhancements, cybernetic implants in their eyes...maybe a way to speed up nerve transmissions for faster thinking and reflexes... dermal implants to absorb more ballistic damage, mental conditioning from birth, etc? The body might even generate enough energy itself to power any cybernetic enhancements, although batteries are certainly implantable.

OR on my third go at this, Let me pose sort of a question. forget armor for the moment, is it possible to take this in stages? To further explain, our conception of powered armor, as I mentioned before comes from science fiction and video games. Now, in some of these, the armor is more form fitting and modular (halo, metroid). This makes me think, maybe a power suit, with armor pieces on top. Think of something that looks like a wetsuit, but has sensors planted all inside, and consisting of a layer of synthetic muscle with mesh or some other covering. a nice, form fitting body suit...that just needs a bunch of power to run. (the more i think about it, the more it all seems possible. we just have to refine current tech and combine it)
 
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  • #51
While we're on the topic...

A while ago, I started hearing things about flexible batteries that had some application as body armor - basically, a ballistic vest that doubled as a battery. Might this be something that helps the Power Armor crowd out? If your batteries can double as ballistic liner at somewhat increased weight, I'd see that as an acceptable tradeoff.

SP
 
  • #52
SebastianPalm said:
While we're on the topic...

A while ago, I started hearing things about flexible batteries that had some application as body armor - basically, a ballistic vest that doubled as a battery. Might this be something that helps the Power Armor crowd out? If your batteries can double as ballistic liner at somewhat increased weight, I'd see that as an acceptable tradeoff.

SP

Seems reasonable, especially since the increased weight would be of negligable importance to a soldier with powered exoskelital legs.
 
  • #53
battery acid leaking into your wounds might be a drawback
 
  • #54
Unfortunately, a lot of KEY points have been overlooked, but there may be a little bit of hope.

As good, in theory, as electronics and computer controls etc. may seem, they are incredibly unreliable. Faults in electronics and especially the wiring involved are very time-consuming to diagnose. Electronics are susceptible to fatigue of components, are haulted by the ingress of water and damaged by vibration and shock.

Computer-controls can crash when over-stressed, rendering the "powered armour" immobile. Imagine being inside such an exoskeleton and it suddenly stop working in the middle of a battleground due to some sort of failure.

Also, imagine being in a hot, stuffy, metal piece of equipment. Imagine trying to get it to fit the occupant sufficiently without it hurting them. Imagine trying to have to solve all these problems before you even solve the problem of how you're going to get it to work.

For the occupant's comfort you could possibly air-condition the compartment but then an air conditioning compressor is a motor that requires a great deal of current and weighs a great deal. If you were to ventilate the compartment it would be cold in the winter and you would lose the ability to make it gas-proof.

In a battle situation, complex systems such as these are not cost-effective, are unreliable and can cause as many problems as they solve.

On the subject of batteries, a russian team of scientists are producing a small nuclear reactor that can replace a mobile phone battery and apparently will supply the required power for 10 years!

ed
 
  • #55
"russian team of scientists are producing a small nuclear reactor that can replace a mobile phone battery and apparently will supply the required power for 10 years!"

got a link to that?
 
  • #56
I'd love to see a link to that, too. :rolleyes:
Maybe its a radio-isotope device ? Good idea - if we
already get brain damage from microwaves why not
add a few nutrons and gamma-waves while we're at it. :biggrin:
Terrorists will become greatest mobile battery consumers. :biggrin:
 
  • #57
This is the link for one recent development in nuclear power technology:

http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99993406

Also, another possibility would be a superconductor loop, however, I've only heard mention of those. I haven't been able to find any actual examples.
One more thing, fuel cell technology is advancing rapidly, and a technology that may not seem feasible as a power source today may prove usable within the next ten years.

Now, for an interesting MATERIAL to look at, go to this site:

http://www.liquidmetal.com

This would allow for an incredibly durable frame for any powered suit, as well as low friction joints. It may also open up a whole new breed of extremely resistant lightweight armor.

Generally it is unwise to declare something impossible or improbable because it does not exist today. Tomorrow is a possibility unknown to any man. Only God knows what wonders or horrors it holds.
 
  • #58
yeah, check out the thread i started a bit ago in the nuclear engineering forums. there's a little bit of talk about hafnium. it was in popular science. pretty neat.
 
  • #59
hey, I have an idea for the power system. How about a power plant that uses biological waste to power it. A piece of equipment as bulky as some have describe will be impossible to get out in time anyway, why fight it?
 
  • #60
umm...no way in hell will burning poo create enough power to move a heavy suit of armor, even if it wasn't yucky.
 

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