Creating a Working Prototype of Armor to Move with You

[zesban]

"While the carbon nanotube muscles can exceed the performance of natural muscle by generating a hundred times the force and elongating twice as fast, the contraction is less than one-tenth that of natural muscle."

It sounds like what they mean is that the tubes provide these forces, but they don't pull in as far as a human muscle would. So when contracting to produce this force, they only shrink down a tenth of an inch in size rather than one inch in size on a comparable ratio.

Perhaps they could use an exterior lining that does shrink like the human muscles do so that the suit still moves with the pilot, but have the carbon nanotubes assist in the actual work while the lining assists in the movement. Perhaps that's why they're examining the polymer muscles, to create a hybrid that capitalizes on the benefits of both. We will see. Thanks for the info!

 

[SkepticJ]

Why not have a layer of steel. Its stronger.

Steel is heavy, the suit needs to be as light as it can be while also being strong.

Possible good materials to build the armor and frame of are metal glass, titanium or alloys of it, spider silk composites(silk is being worked on right now), carbon nanotube composites, good old graphite composites, glass microsphere composites and aramid composites.

 

[SkepticJ]

"While the carbon nanotube muscles can exceed the performance of natural muscle by generating a hundred times the force and elongating twice as fast, the contraction is less than one-tenth that of natural muscle."

It sounds like what they mean is that the tubes provide these forces, but they don't pull in as far as a human muscle would. So when contracting to produce this force, they only shrink down a tenth of an inch in size rather than one inch in size on a comparable ratio.

Hmmm, you might be right, they worded it poorly if so. They should have said the muscle contracts at 1/10th the speed; but why doesn't the article say they elongate and contract a 2X human muscle speed? Why don't you e-mail them and get an anwser? Or I could but I don't feel like it.

 

[LURCH]

Solution seems simple; if the artificial muscle contracts 1/10^th the distance but 100x the force of human muscle, one could attach the artificial muscle to a lever that amplifies the range of motion 10x's, and still have 10x's the strength, no?

 

[zesban]

That is true, but again it would be better to avoid moving parts, as they are prone to breakage. I think that's why they're examining the uses of other polymer muscles. These muscles more close mimic the movement of human muscles and may provide the answer if used properly. I may just email them.

 

[dragonpowered]

ok i have another question. why not build the entire suit out of composites. it would be lighter and many times stronger than steel. also all anyone seems to see as a really big obstacle is the financial side of developement. well if you were developing nanobots to reapair the suit then why not use them to build it too? as to the support structures i meant things like where they are stored what will deploy them(like the dropship in aliens and the "coffins" in starship troopers). also is the armour going to be more like a knight of the 15th century where you had to have help to put it on or can we make it like a suit. step into it, zip it up,and the nanobots stiffens certain parts to absorb impact. what could be simpler?

 

[dragonpowered]

oh another thing, has anyone thought of using the suits in space?

 

[brewnog]

step into it, zip it up,and the nanobots stiffens certain parts to absorb impact. what could be simpler?

What could be simpler indeed!

Technology like this is so far down the line that when it becomes available, the need for humans being suited up like this would be completely superfluous.

Nice brainstorming though...

 

[dragonpowered]

ok so the the technology is farther down the road but still the question remains. will it be hard to "suit up" or will the suit be like wearing clothes?meaning that it is relatively easy to "suit up" on your own.

 

[dragonpowered]

hey guys check this out http://neogentronyx.com/content/view/20/43/ its really awesome. of course it is a bit taller than we were discussing.

 

[Kulaman]

WARNING! this post may possibly be a waste of your time.

Hello guys, I've been keeping track of where this topic has been going for almost a year now, and finally decided I wanted to post, as this is a topic near and dear to my heart (I'm a Warhammer 40,000 player), and if you look to Mechwarrior 2 Mercenaries and the Elemental 'Mech you'll see a perfect example of what I think we are looking for. Well anyway, I was just looking back at an earlier post of yours zesban and i think that ZTA-96 Zirconia Toughened Alumina would probably be a better material for this application than AmAlOx 68 Alumina. well, I hope I didn't waste your time with this post
*edit*
i just remembered a wonderful metal my father told me about one time, Berylium i think it was. if what he told me is true, we could build say, a car engine, and include 5% berylium in alloy, it wouldn't need oil, period. granted, berylium isn't exactly cheap if i remember correctly, so it probably wouldn't really be cost efective here, it was just a thouht

 

[Kulaman]

i really hate to see this topic fall so deep in the back logs... (i'm not normally one to double post but...) unfortuantly i don't have any more to add right now, other than a bump and a prayer... lol i also wish i could delete that stupid title i put on my last post...

 

[rhinovirus]

i just remembered a wonderful metal my father told me about one time, Berylium i think it was. if what he told me is true, we could build say, a car engine, and include 5% berylium in alloy, it wouldn't need oil, period. granted, berylium isn't exactly cheap if i remember correctly, so it probably wouldn't really be cost efective here, it was just a thouht

Yeah my materials lecturer has told me how great the stuff is and how widely used it would be...if it were not for the fact that 1 in 7 people are fatally alergic to the stuff.

 

[SaMx]

IMO, a "Mech Warrior" or "Gundam" type thing would be completely superfluous, especially for urban warfare. You have something that cannot enter a building, and isn't going to be any faster or better armed than a tank (probably slower and with lighter armament). Plus, if it's that big, is there any reason to make it human shaped, or even give it legs? Legs give you the advantage of being able to handle rough terrain, but in a city you already have paved streets. Plus, a human is relatively tall and narrow, which means that it would be easy to knock over. And legs are less efficient than wheels or treads. The only scale at which powered armor is feasible is about human sized. Think Master Chief from Halo, not Mech Warrior.

 

[Kulaman]

okay, okay.(master chief's armor doesn't give him that strength, he has that from implants) Think the Space Marines from Warhammer 40,000 then. their armor makes them about 30% larger than a human, with broad soled "boots" giving them a lot of stability.

 

[zesban]

Wow, it's nice to see this post is still alive. Well I was recently discussing this very topic with my cousin and he brought something up that I was not entirely aware of. As it turns out Carbon Nano Fiber is very tough, but it is also very brittle, not supple as I previously thought. That is to say is does not bend well, which precludes it from my no moving parts idea. As such I'll have to start from scratch in locating an acceptible power amplifier for the suit.

As for the wear of the suit, I'd put it roughly between wearing Plate Mail and wearing a Deep Dive Suit. Ofcourse, the weight would be off set by the assistance the suit provides. The idea though is to keep it low profile enough that the soldier can navigate an urban environ without much impedance.

 

[rhinovirus]

Lots of interesting posts, lots of talk about materials and power sources, but not much in the way of control systems. I think this would be the 3rd major hurdle to overcome, after power and materials. To make the most of the suit, I think most of you would agree that it would sense the movement of the wearer and react to that rather than some sort of joystick and buttons configuration. Is it possible to develop a control system that allows the suit to react immediately and precisely? One of the possible dangers is the control system malfunctions or misjudges your movements and reacts in such away that, for example, it breaks the wearers arm.

FutureRNS had the interesting suggestion of intercepting signals from muscle-controlling neurons:

4)Control system. It would be imposible to move your leg forwards, so no pressure plates would work. But I think I found interesting solution. When you move your arm or leg your brain sends a neuro signal for muscle. Everything is like with a fiber that is developed already. So you could intercept these signals and produse into electronical signals. This way power armor wouldn't be a suit it would be extension of human body.

I forsee a problem with this "extension of human body" idea. You can walk about quite freely and agilely because of the balancing mechanism in your ears, but also because you personally have a feeling for your own weight and mass distribution. You'd be controlling the suit as if it was just your body, but the dynamics of the armour would be vastly different - you'd have x amount more weight and it would be distributed differently, you'd end up over/under-compensating and generally falling over lots. You would require some sort of feedback system to give the wearer a feel for their 'new' body. As a revision of FutureRNS's idea you could send information back into the wearers brain, letting them actually feel the armour as if it was skin/muscle/bone, but I can't see that sort of technology being available anytime soon.

Just some thoughts.

rhinovirus

 

[zesban]

It is true that the control system would be vital in the operation of such a suit. But I think we're on two separate paths here.

What I would envision is an active assistance system whereas it seems the one you suggest is passive. While the passive would eventually be a better system, I think at first we should look to the suit to only offer assistance on certain tasks. That way we have less interpretation to leave up to the control system.

Some tasks would include lifting, climbing, jumping, and running. Because your soldier is not constantly engaged in these activities the suit would not be engaged. When it came time to perform one of these activities only then would it kick into assist by providing extra leverage to a limited range of arm and leg movements.

Additionally the suit would have to support a good amount of it's own structure, taking the burden off of the wearer. Otherwise it would be self-defeating as we're trying to increase battlefield endurance, not encumber it. Thus the lighter materials are more preferable.

Another benefit of starting with this system would be that power consumption is lowered thus easing the initial power requirements, making it easier to develop such a suit. This is because the suit would not be engaged and with proper power management would have an increased operation window.

In addition it would be recommended that the soldier be trained on how to use the suit and how to move with it, much like any other heavy armor training. From there we could eventually evolve a passive assistance suit that is always assisting its wearer. And we would have real world data and countless hours of training and feedback to provide better information for it's development than what we could possibly speculate.

With such a suit the control system would be easier to design for because we're choosing to limit the capabilities in the initial designs. Without having to account for as much of the dynamic positioning that the human body is capable of, we can focus on better developing the control of the functions we do implement.

It may even be more reasonable to only focus on static position functions at first such as just lifting and maybe assisting only the upper body in certain climbing exercises. The idea is to start by focusing on a small range of movement and designing for that scenario and then integrating larger ranges in each design iteration.

 

[glondor]

Thought I would bring this one back to life with some new developments.

http://videos.howstuffworks.com/reuters/3369-alien-exoskeleton-for-us-army-video.htm

 

[russ_watters]

That's cool, but it doesn't really change the focus of the discussion: Due to power requirements, I doubt this will ever be feasible for a soldier to wear in combat.

 

[glondor]

Was not trying to change focus, only update some new developments I came across.")

 

[TheRyan]

Too bad James Bond's magnetic bullet deflection built into a watch was proven ineffective on MythBusters, otherwise that technology could have made one sweet kind of electromagnetic body armor. How about Iron Man? That's a kind of mechanical body armor that moves with you, and we all know from the trailers how awesome it could be. If only that stuff worked in real life as it did in the movies...

 

[Zogie]

For the problem of power you could use a Radioisotope thermoelectric generator, or a radioisotope generator. Obviously both of these would have huge problems with radioactive contamination, and cooking the "occupant", and nether are that efficient, but you wouldn't have to re-fuel for a good 50 years :)

 

[Wetmelon]

I don't know if anyone has shown this video yet, but here it is:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1556743/exoskeleton_turns_humans_into_terminators/

 

[AlexES16]

You could work for Sarcos they have an functional exo-eskeleton.

Watch this

 

[calebking]

As a former Army officer, I can attest to the fact that any armor used would need to be light enough to use without any mechanical assistance. This is because anything that can break, will break. I think it would be much more effective to spend money on research for lighter, more effective armor materials. Also, it would be nice to have a solid way of attaching them to your body without gaps. Maybe bullet resistant fiber mesh with fire and radiation protection? I'm dreaming now, but it isn't as far off as you would think.

 

[young'n'smart]

my first post:

well here is a link for a highly mobile exoskleten:

if you want an exoskeleten availble to the public look up berkly bionics who made a exoskelten for carrying weight of up to 200 lb

if you want a full exoskeleten look up the trojan armour or troy hurbitise.

 

[CAC1001]

Just curious, but does anyone think that something like those big AMP suits used in the movie Avatar will ever be created in the future? They are not the fantasy-type mechas we see that have all sorts of missiles and limbs that are guns, or those brightly-colored anime-type mechas, but they also are not a mechanical suit like say the Nintendo character Samus Aran or Iron Man wears.

They're kind of like the best of both worlds, they provide the goals of a mech suit, but large enough for a power source (the AMP suits use an engine to pwoer the hydraulics).

 

[athabasca]

Hi, first time poster here, long time fan of mechs and power armor.

This is going to happen in the near future I believe, as an avid science fiction fan and science news reader, I just can't help but think the power source issue will be overcome somehow.

Obviously there is no public data on the power consumption rates and total carrying capacity of the Sarcos exoskeleton, but it's not impossible that technology being deployed in Afghanistan when NATO is still there with it's huge army of private mercenaries with deep pockets and looser sets of rules.

So to offer something new to the thread, I noticed RTG's have been brought up but not in combination with http://www.worldlingo.com/ma/enwiki/en/Stirling_radioisotope_generator"

At 1.5 kg's and making 120w of power surely that comes close to the specs we need? Ten of these working together or one scaled up to 15kg and generating over a kilowatt of power would do it I think. Am I even in the ballpark?

I'm no engineer but heat management is definitely an issue here, especially in Afghan sunlight. The options might be this http://www.infinitepowersolutions.com/product/thinergy" Maybe going into buildings isn't a great idea when you're power source is giving off thousands of watts of heat.

Could anyone speculate on whether or not this is even feasible? 'All things break', and 'soldiers with WHAT strapped to their backs?' aside, I am researching for some near future fiction and love the 'mundane' angle. So please help enlighten me if you have some education in these matters.

As far as weapons go the AA-12 with all the different ammo types would have be to part of the firepower. Low recoil and lots of http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atchisson_Assault_Shotgun#Cartridges". Also non lethal capabilities seem obvious to prevent collateral damage as much as possible. The reason the man's in the suit in the first place right?

Please critique, respond or just generally inform why that will never work at all.

 

[Mr. Blue Dot]

Hi this is my first post here, I've been looking around the forums for the last few days, and there are a lot of smart people here!

I've read thru all 12 pages of this thread, and I'm surprised no one has mentioned http://www.cyberdyne.jp/english/robotsuithal/index.html"!

I really like the control system for this suit, it measures nerve impulses and moves almost before you even know you're moving. It has me interested in how I could start tracking my own nerve impulses and use that information, but I don't know where to begin. I assumed that galvanic skin response sensors, like the ones on lie detectors, measured nerves impulses, but apparently they measure more or less the activity of sweat glands. I'm sure it would be possible to recreate this control system in the garage, and there are tons of other things it could be used for.

athabasca: Thats 1.5kg of fuel, not the entire weight of the reactor. Radiation and heat shielding alone would make it weigh hundreds, if not thousands of pounds with todays technology, unfortunately.

That being said, why would you need a backpack size nuclear reactor anyway? A few people on this thread have mentioned the idea. Personally I think it's overkill, and not practical. A powered suit will not need a charge that lasts decades.

A suit used for industrial and factory purposes would only be run for 4 hours at a time, since the operator would need breaks, and it wouldn't be far from a charging/refueling station. Of course, if it's operating in or near a building it could just be tethered to the buildings power.

As far as military goes, it almost seems like it would be more important to be able to easily refuel or recharge in the field. An engine that was able to run on a variety of fuels, gasoline, kerosene, ethanol, propane, diesel, ect., would be very versatile, and allow a soldier to find fuel almost anywhere, even if he has to build a still and make fuel himself.

But I say this while thinking about the current state of technology. Nuclear reactor backpacks are something we might see in the far, far, distant future, if ever. Nuclear batteries would be much easier to use and are in development now.

Some scientists have found they can store massive amounts of energy by http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/07/compressed-xenon-di-flouride-into.html" at pressures close to what's found halfway to the center of the earth. If they can make a battery it would probably be exactly what's needed to power a suit without the engine. Even that is a long way away though, and I'm honestly more interested in what can be done right now with existing tech.

Don't get me wrong, I like to speculate on what the future will bring just as much as anyone else, but a constant stream of science fiction has made me impatient for powered suits , and I want one now