- #91
kirkmcloren
- 42
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whisper said:
Creating a Working Prototype of Armor to Move with You
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Creating a working prototype of armor that moves with the wearer presents significant technical challenges, primarily related to power supply and weight. The integration of electronics and synthetic muscle materials could enhance movement but would increase production costs. Current synthetic muscle technologies, like carbon nanotubes, show promise for creating lightweight and powerful actuators. However, the practicality of powering such armor remains a concern, as traditional power sources may be too heavy and cumbersome for effective use. Ultimately, while advancements are being made, the feasibility of fully operational powered armor for everyday use is still uncertain.
- #92
whisper
- 6
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Please read the PDF attached to the abstract.
Here are a couple facts.
Metal generally is crystalline.
Strong magnetic fields cannot stop gamma radiation but magnetic fields can alter its trajectory.
Structural alignment is more important than mass and beyond that there are other forces that are more important than structural alignment.
Please don't expect me to explain the science or find all the papers and articles necessary explain all the process it's not something I can do.
So you'll have to take it on faith for now, I’m sure before long it'll show up in Scientific America or the like.
whisper
Here are a couple facts.
Metal generally is crystalline.
Strong magnetic fields cannot stop gamma radiation but magnetic fields can alter its trajectory.
Structural alignment is more important than mass and beyond that there are other forces that are more important than structural alignment.
Please don't expect me to explain the science or find all the papers and articles necessary explain all the process it's not something I can do.
So you'll have to take it on faith for now, I’m sure before long it'll show up in Scientific America or the like.
whisper
- #93
kirkmcloren
- 42
- 0
whisper said:
Sorry, I take nothing on faith especially when it is contrary to the established body of science. Only alpha and beta are deflected by a magnetic field. Gamma is not.
You don't have to find papers and articles. Just tell me where you got the misinformation you already have. What papers were they?
Remember gamma rays are used by astronomers because they are not deviated by magnetic fields during their travels over intergalactic distances.
They point right back to their source.
Kirk
- #94
drag
Science Advisor
- 1,097
- 1
There are no strong magnetic fields in intergalactic space either.
But, I too never heard of magnetic fields affecting
gamma ray trijectory.
But, I too never heard of magnetic fields affecting
gamma ray trijectory.
- #95
russ_watters
Mentor
- 23,761
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Keep it on topic guys - whisper, that stuff sounds suspiciously like Electric Cosmos. We won't be discussing that in the engineering forum and likely not at all on this site. Please obey the rules of the forum.
- #96
kirkmcloren
- 42
- 0
drag said:
What you are trying to perceive is the affect. If the distance is short, as in a lab, the field's effect has to be large enough to be measureable. If the field is quite weak and it's effect quite small it would still be easy to see as intergalactic distance is many times the distance in the lab. A very small affect would be large over that distance.
Kirk
- #97
zesban
- 26
- 0
Alright, coming back around to the topic then.
I believe we do have the capability for the power source. RTGs I think hold potential and there are probably even better solutions that already exist or are close. I think we should focus on one that can generate steady amounts of electricity from a stable system with a long life span. The reason I would argue this is that I'd like to see the muscle like nanotubes provide the mechanical energy for the armor from this electrical source.
The problem here is even if plasma fields could be used to harvest gamma radiation, the original idea was to have the Hf178m2 provide, unless I'm mistaken. And it would appear that this is not likely, as the experiment itself is so far unable to be reproduced and seems to not be possible.
One possibility may be a Helium-3 fusion reactor. This exciting material has been concepted to fusion with itself and release no radiation. Only appropriate heat shielding would be necessary. Further, proof-of-principle has been established that it can fusion with Deuterium with very little radiation given off.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html
Also, a more mundane solution may come from a company called UltraLife batteries. Their Lithium ION cells are flexible in their configuration and rechargeable. Further, they appear to produce a decent current.
http://www.ulbi.com/market-display.asp?ID=10
Feel free to contribute further ideas, this forum has been great for sharing ideas on this!
I believe we do have the capability for the power source. RTGs I think hold potential and there are probably even better solutions that already exist or are close. I think we should focus on one that can generate steady amounts of electricity from a stable system with a long life span. The reason I would argue this is that I'd like to see the muscle like nanotubes provide the mechanical energy for the armor from this electrical source.
The problem here is even if plasma fields could be used to harvest gamma radiation, the original idea was to have the Hf178m2 provide, unless I'm mistaken. And it would appear that this is not likely, as the experiment itself is so far unable to be reproduced and seems to not be possible.
One possibility may be a Helium-3 fusion reactor. This exciting material has been concepted to fusion with itself and release no radiation. Only appropriate heat shielding would be necessary. Further, proof-of-principle has been established that it can fusion with Deuterium with very little radiation given off.
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/helium3_000630.html
Also, a more mundane solution may come from a company called UltraLife batteries. Their Lithium ION cells are flexible in their configuration and rechargeable. Further, they appear to produce a decent current.
http://www.ulbi.com/market-display.asp?ID=10
Feel free to contribute further ideas, this forum has been great for sharing ideas on this!
Last edited by a moderator:
- #98
FutureRNS
- 5
- 0
Helow. I'm new here, so I can't undersand what's the problem? Power armor has got basic parts:
1) Engine that creates energy. It could be anything from micro nuclear or hydrogen plant to biological synthesis.
2) Armor plating. USA army has been developing new tipes of armor for tank. Lates polifabric ceramical armor could be used to cover power armors. It is light ant has got good qualitys even in few centimetre thick. New researches of fiber produce by spiders
could be useful here too. It's incrediblly stong and elastic. But you should understand that you can't make power armor resistant to everything. Basicly it should be inpenetratable for bulets up to 50 cal.. RPG and 50 cal. could penetrate every armor of up to 3-4 cm thickness.
3) Muscular system. I read about fiber muscles long time ago. It's the most progresive solution I can think of. It is highly tolerant to heat, pressure or other factors. It doesn't need other machinery to work (not like hydraulics whitch needs masive compresors). Fully operational unit could produce speeds up to 30-50 km/h, jump to 6-12 meters high.
4)Control system. It would be imposible to move your leg forwards, so no pressure plates would work. But I think I found interesting solution. When you move your arm or leg your brain sends a neuro signal for muscle. Everything is like with a fiber that is developed already. So you could intercept these signals and produse into electronical signals. This way power armor wouldn't be a suit it would be extension of human body.
5)Visual system. I think everyone would agree that it isn't a problem :) New technology cameras would help to see targets that is 2-6 km away. When connected whith weapon, it could improve targeting system. Hitting a moving target wouldn't be a problem even in distance of 2km.Such weaponry is already in development or production.
6)Life suport system. Power armor should protect what is inside. But armor isn't everything. Soldier should be protected from biological weaponry. So it should be hermetic container whilth individual air suport or air cleaning system.
With such power armor, soldier could be be exteemly mobile, invulnerable to bulets and could take down 10-20 soldiers in close combat and even more in distance. So it's future of warfare.
By the way, sorry about my grama, Engish is my second language. I'm from lithuania :)
1) Engine that creates energy. It could be anything from micro nuclear or hydrogen plant to biological synthesis.
2) Armor plating. USA army has been developing new tipes of armor for tank. Lates polifabric ceramical armor could be used to cover power armors. It is light ant has got good qualitys even in few centimetre thick. New researches of fiber produce by spiders
could be useful here too. It's incrediblly stong and elastic. But you should understand that you can't make power armor resistant to everything. Basicly it should be inpenetratable for bulets up to 50 cal.. RPG and 50 cal. could penetrate every armor of up to 3-4 cm thickness.
3) Muscular system. I read about fiber muscles long time ago. It's the most progresive solution I can think of. It is highly tolerant to heat, pressure or other factors. It doesn't need other machinery to work (not like hydraulics whitch needs masive compresors). Fully operational unit could produce speeds up to 30-50 km/h, jump to 6-12 meters high.
4)Control system. It would be imposible to move your leg forwards, so no pressure plates would work. But I think I found interesting solution. When you move your arm or leg your brain sends a neuro signal for muscle. Everything is like with a fiber that is developed already. So you could intercept these signals and produse into electronical signals. This way power armor wouldn't be a suit it would be extension of human body.
5)Visual system. I think everyone would agree that it isn't a problem :) New technology cameras would help to see targets that is 2-6 km away. When connected whith weapon, it could improve targeting system. Hitting a moving target wouldn't be a problem even in distance of 2km.Such weaponry is already in development or production.
6)Life suport system. Power armor should protect what is inside. But armor isn't everything. Soldier should be protected from biological weaponry. So it should be hermetic container whilth individual air suport or air cleaning system.
With such power armor, soldier could be be exteemly mobile, invulnerable to bulets and could take down 10-20 soldiers in close combat and even more in distance. So it's future of warfare.
By the way, sorry about my grama, Engish is my second language. I'm from lithuania :)
- #99
zesban
- 26
- 0
Yes, it's interesting how more and more we're able to get metals to act like polymers. This over all but the power source, is probable the greatest advancement we've toward developing such a piece of technology.
I still think the power source is, like most things that are in development, the most critical hinge on which a project like this is fixed. Unfortunately, this also seems to be the slowest developing component. I wish we had more info on viable power sources, but crawling the internet even doesn't seem to yield much in this way.
Anybody out there got some info on compact power sources?
I still think the power source is, like most things that are in development, the most critical hinge on which a project like this is fixed. Unfortunately, this also seems to be the slowest developing component. I wish we had more info on viable power sources, but crawling the internet even doesn't seem to yield much in this way.
Anybody out there got some info on compact power sources?
- #100
wgayton
- 1
- 0
Good stuff
It’s truly amazing, seems like a powered suite has all the pieces in place to a large degree except for the power supply. I think I remember seeing something similar to what whisper was talking about on darpa's website sometime ago, I'm trying to find it again. Anyway I think it was about very small reactors for robotic spy submarines. If I can find it I’ll post a link.
How long would you need to power such a suit and how much power would it consume? It may not be necessary to have a very advanced power supply.
Just a few hours at before a recharge would probably still make something like this very effective.
My thoughts.
It’s truly amazing, seems like a powered suite has all the pieces in place to a large degree except for the power supply. I think I remember seeing something similar to what whisper was talking about on darpa's website sometime ago, I'm trying to find it again. Anyway I think it was about very small reactors for robotic spy submarines. If I can find it I’ll post a link.
How long would you need to power such a suit and how much power would it consume? It may not be necessary to have a very advanced power supply.
Just a few hours at before a recharge would probably still make something like this very effective.
My thoughts.
- #101
FutureRNS
- 5
- 0
Yes, it's interesting idea to use stored energy. But it would greatly reduse the efectivnes of power armor. Still maybe it's the only solution for this time. I found interesting product that is already in stocks. It's simple batary, of unusual thikness. one batary is only 0.6 mm. You can find all data about Powe paper here http://www.powerpaper.com/u/3_technology/batteryspecs.htm .
But i don't think that it would be good solution. I'm looking into a beter perspective. Nano-technology. It is said that nano robtos will be in production after 2 to 5 years. It isn't very long. So every power armor created would be opsolyte when nano-technology will be developed. But i think that there is a formu for this technology. But by the way i wanted to ask what is power usage of the muscle fiber? I think that i saw about it on tv and they said that is very low.
But i don't think that it would be good solution. I'm looking into a beter perspective. Nano-technology. It is said that nano robtos will be in production after 2 to 5 years. It isn't very long. So every power armor created would be opsolyte when nano-technology will be developed. But i think that there is a formu for this technology. But by the way i wanted to ask what is power usage of the muscle fiber? I think that i saw about it on tv and they said that is very low.
- #102
zesban
- 26
- 0
I'm not sure what power would be needed to drive the nano fiber. Most people researching that technology are interested in it for its tensile strength currently. This property is unique to certain layouts in its structure and was an accidental discovery. Never-the-less, it has fantastic possibilties for an armored suit, but nobody is reasearching what it would take exactly to power such a device, to my knowledge anyhow.
If anyone finds any figures on this it would be interesting to seen them. We know the human body can produce enough power to drive its muscular system readily enough, so I don't imagine this to be too taxing on a power system, but real figures are always better than educated guesses.
If anyone finds any figures on this it would be interesting to seen them. We know the human body can produce enough power to drive its muscular system readily enough, so I don't imagine this to be too taxing on a power system, but real figures are always better than educated guesses.
- #103
notal33t
- 25
- 0
Darpa & Nanotech
One wonders if DARPA's involvement in the whole area of nanofiber research isn't going to ultimately bury the construction of such projects as the space elevator under a blanket of 'national security interests', due to this whole area of nano-armor. I hope I'm wrong, but I've run into several attempts at misinformation and, unexplicable (sic) ridiculing of the concept of using CNT, by people one could term defence establishment types.
It's would truly be a shame if, 'defence establishment types', have placed civilian nanofiber technology on it's KILL list, because of 'nano-armor'.
One wonders if DARPA's involvement in the whole area of nanofiber research isn't going to ultimately bury the construction of such projects as the space elevator under a blanket of 'national security interests', due to this whole area of nano-armor. I hope I'm wrong, but I've run into several attempts at misinformation and, unexplicable (sic) ridiculing of the concept of using CNT, by people one could term defence establishment types.
It's would truly be a shame if, 'defence establishment types', have placed civilian nanofiber technology on it's KILL list, because of 'nano-armor'.
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- #104
zesban
- 26
- 0
Indeed, a frightening inference. Regardless, unless a suitable power source is found the point is moot. I haven't had much time to research potential power sources or what the power requirements would be for the suit myself. Any ideas, figures, etc...?
- #105
lucien86
- 22
- 0
I have been working on things rather like this for many years, I was mainly looking at
the design for bipedal robots but power suits have much the same problems.
Yes power supply is the biggest issue. Nuclear reactors, biochemical engines, and batteries are basically out because of various reasons, but basically don't produce enough energy.
The simple and only current sane solution is our old friend the internal combustion engine. Its light weight strong reliable and above all produces a lot of energy. This can then drive an efficient pneumatic or hydraulic compressor, electrical drives or even mechanical half shafts and clutches.
Another potential solution is steam drive, this can deliver quite a lot of power for low weight but generates a lot of heat. Steams real problem though is its safety aspects, - if anything goes wrong it tends to explode with shrapnel, or broils the operator alive.
These are some old robot technologies developed in the 50's and 60‘s, mostly by the American military, most of these come under the heading called pitons. (Pitons work rather like pneumatic rams, the movement comes directly from a sliding piston, but they are driven in a different way.)
There are several kinds of pitons. -
Petrol pitons use tiny pulsed petrol explosions inside the cylinders themselves, they were very powerful but unstable (I don't know if they ever worked).
Hyper-sonic pitons used hypersonic shockwaves to move the pistons, they were incredibly fast and powerful but extremely dangerous. The shockwave generator was basically a powerful whistle and if it failed in the wrong way the energy could leak out killing anyone within a hundred feet or more. Also although the drive system was very lightweight the shockwave generator itself weighed several tones. Shockwave machines tend to explode if 'anything' goes wrong.
Rocket pitons used a rocket engine to provide the impetus (probably similar to the V1's pulse jet), again a lot of power and again subject to self detonation.
Vacuum pitons were more sensible and used strong vacuum pumps rather than compressors, but are otherwise quite similar to modern pneumatics.
Electrical pitons were the strangest of all, they used electrical fields to move the pitons and they are quite different to any technology used today. As far as I know they were pretty close to genuine positronics and used a 'very' high field strength. Surprisingly very fast and very strong. Completely invulnerable to EMP themselves but unfortunately a very strong generator of EMP and radio noise. Electrical pitons could well have been connected to a nuclear fusion engine developed in the 50's by the American military that used the same technology - it was one of the programs destroyed by Kennedy and nothing is known about it now.
The final type of piton used a wonderful idea, it was driven by a battery that stored energy by bending space directly, not surprisingly it is entirely theoretical. The plus side of such a battery is that it can store energy almost without limit. The downside is that space is slippery, and if the batteries ultimate limit is reached or anything goes wrong all the energy is released instantly, and it explodes with enormous force.
There is a legend that this battery actually was built and has been used in teleportation experiments, it was essentially a giant electrical capacitor with a colossal electrical field inside it. (The legend says that it was powered by 8 500 megawatt power stations). The 'Hoover' teleportation experiment had the vile motto (something like) '6 seconds from Moscow'.
The real point about all the above though is that any really high energy system has a high tendency to fail, and particularly to explode. The same is true of liquid oxygen systems.
At the end of the day it looks like its sad old petrol that's the solution. In the future some kind of system using muscles may be possible BUT it is really decades away. The real problem with muscles is that they get damaged constantly in use so they need to be self repairing, I don't see how synthetic muscles can (ever) do it. A living machine using natural muscle seems to be the real best solution but would be colossally difficult to construct and is practically identical to a well known experiment by a certain Dr Frankenstein. (pictures greens and animal rights protesters chasing me with pitch and burning torches)
the design for bipedal robots but power suits have much the same problems.
Yes power supply is the biggest issue. Nuclear reactors, biochemical engines, and batteries are basically out because of various reasons, but basically don't produce enough energy.
The simple and only current sane solution is our old friend the internal combustion engine. Its light weight strong reliable and above all produces a lot of energy. This can then drive an efficient pneumatic or hydraulic compressor, electrical drives or even mechanical half shafts and clutches.
Another potential solution is steam drive, this can deliver quite a lot of power for low weight but generates a lot of heat. Steams real problem though is its safety aspects, - if anything goes wrong it tends to explode with shrapnel, or broils the operator alive.
These are some old robot technologies developed in the 50's and 60‘s, mostly by the American military, most of these come under the heading called pitons. (Pitons work rather like pneumatic rams, the movement comes directly from a sliding piston, but they are driven in a different way.)
There are several kinds of pitons. -
Petrol pitons use tiny pulsed petrol explosions inside the cylinders themselves, they were very powerful but unstable (I don't know if they ever worked).
Hyper-sonic pitons used hypersonic shockwaves to move the pistons, they were incredibly fast and powerful but extremely dangerous. The shockwave generator was basically a powerful whistle and if it failed in the wrong way the energy could leak out killing anyone within a hundred feet or more. Also although the drive system was very lightweight the shockwave generator itself weighed several tones. Shockwave machines tend to explode if 'anything' goes wrong.
Rocket pitons used a rocket engine to provide the impetus (probably similar to the V1's pulse jet), again a lot of power and again subject to self detonation.
Vacuum pitons were more sensible and used strong vacuum pumps rather than compressors, but are otherwise quite similar to modern pneumatics.
Electrical pitons were the strangest of all, they used electrical fields to move the pitons and they are quite different to any technology used today. As far as I know they were pretty close to genuine positronics and used a 'very' high field strength. Surprisingly very fast and very strong. Completely invulnerable to EMP themselves but unfortunately a very strong generator of EMP and radio noise. Electrical pitons could well have been connected to a nuclear fusion engine developed in the 50's by the American military that used the same technology - it was one of the programs destroyed by Kennedy and nothing is known about it now.
The final type of piton used a wonderful idea, it was driven by a battery that stored energy by bending space directly, not surprisingly it is entirely theoretical. The plus side of such a battery is that it can store energy almost without limit. The downside is that space is slippery, and if the batteries ultimate limit is reached or anything goes wrong all the energy is released instantly, and it explodes with enormous force.
There is a legend that this battery actually was built and has been used in teleportation experiments, it was essentially a giant electrical capacitor with a colossal electrical field inside it. (The legend says that it was powered by 8 500 megawatt power stations). The 'Hoover' teleportation experiment had the vile motto (something like) '6 seconds from Moscow'.
The real point about all the above though is that any really high energy system has a high tendency to fail, and particularly to explode. The same is true of liquid oxygen systems.
At the end of the day it looks like its sad old petrol that's the solution. In the future some kind of system using muscles may be possible BUT it is really decades away. The real problem with muscles is that they get damaged constantly in use so they need to be self repairing, I don't see how synthetic muscles can (ever) do it. A living machine using natural muscle seems to be the real best solution but would be colossally difficult to construct and is practically identical to a well known experiment by a certain Dr Frankenstein. (pictures greens and animal rights protesters chasing me with pitch and burning torches)
- #106
zesban
- 26
- 0
The difference between our muscles and this is stuff is epic in disproportion.
Please refer to the following source:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_elevator_020327-1.html
Carbon nano-tubes, nature's response to Buddy Lee's "Can't bust 'em" would be the material I'm referring to.
Also refer to the following source for applications in Electromechanical Devices:
http://www.eikos.com/articles/carbnano_routetoapp.pdf
(This was in a previous post of mine, and again I would like to point out that this is a lengthy but good article on the material.)
The idea then is a feasible power source. Sadly no one is yet interested in pursuing this technology *because* it's too similar to the natural solution.
Please refer to the following source:
http://www.space.com/businesstechnology/technology/space_elevator_020327-1.html
Carbon nano-tubes, nature's response to Buddy Lee's "Can't bust 'em" would be the material I'm referring to.
Also refer to the following source for applications in Electromechanical Devices:
http://www.eikos.com/articles/carbnano_routetoapp.pdf
(This was in a previous post of mine, and again I would like to point out that this is a lengthy but good article on the material.)
The idea then is a feasible power source. Sadly no one is yet interested in pursuing this technology *because* it's too similar to the natural solution.
- #107
theriddler876
- 98
- 0
blah, hmnn I don't know if someone said this before but I have no intent in reading 8 pages worth of posts, but, one the suit will be made of some kind of metal if it's going to be resistant so then you can just get a really big magnet, or if it's even remotely electrical powered you can distrupt it's function with a tazer or something. the weight wouldln't be an issue because it would sense pressure and move with you type thing, unless it's mechanisms where shut off in which case you'd be stuck
- #108
FutureRNS
- 5
- 0
you must be joking? A huge magnet. Ya ! Wonderfull . Have you heard of EMP? You drop a bomb and all batlefeeld is disabled :) But this is overkill. Power armor can be made of ceramic and plastic material with electomagnetic sheelding. But theriddler876 tree to imagine, what potencial power armor has in close combat. Enyone seen 3Dmark 2005. It would be like that :) And no one is talking about invulnerable mashine.
- #109
zesban
- 26
- 0
Additionally, not all metals react to a magnet. But yes, ceramics and polymers have shown great promise recently and may end up being the material of choice. Riddler, I would refer you to some sources on ceramic composites such as AmAlOX-68.
http://www.astromet.com/alumina-ceramic-amalox68.htm
Also, a tazer shouldn't shut down a suit that is electric powered unless you were to apply it directly to a circuit path. If the suit is properly built then the possibility of a tazer shutting down the suit would be equivocal to the tazer shutting down your car while it's running.
Now these potential problems having been addressed, that's not to say such a suit would be indestructible. An atomic bomb, or more simply, an RPG would still injure and/or kill the wearer. But, its presense on a field of combat though would allow for a sizeable increase in the effectiveness of the infantry, saving lives and providing an edge in both peacekeeping and war time operations. Then there's the industrial applications of said suit.
http://www.astromet.com/alumina-ceramic-amalox68.htm
Also, a tazer shouldn't shut down a suit that is electric powered unless you were to apply it directly to a circuit path. If the suit is properly built then the possibility of a tazer shutting down the suit would be equivocal to the tazer shutting down your car while it's running.
Now these potential problems having been addressed, that's not to say such a suit would be indestructible. An atomic bomb, or more simply, an RPG would still injure and/or kill the wearer. But, its presense on a field of combat though would allow for a sizeable increase in the effectiveness of the infantry, saving lives and providing an edge in both peacekeeping and war time operations. Then there's the industrial applications of said suit.
- #110
FutureRNS
- 5
- 0
That's what i am talking about:) Evin tanks can be destructed. And they are ... what 20-50 t. Power armor should be up to 1 t. to be productive. So as i said you could reach maximum imunity to bulets up to 50 cal. RPG would definately not only penetrate any armor of that thiknes but would destroy enyone operating power armor. But it would still be a "slising and tramping" machine. With new technology termo cameras, it could spot all infantry in 1-5 km range. So it would be extreemly dificult tu destroy one powered soldier and even harder if they would be in group. But the is a idiom in lithuania "Neskaiciuok visciuku ziema" :)
- #111
lucien86
- 22
- 0
RPG's are the real problem with anything like powered armour. War is a horrible place and real soldiers are cheap plentiful and expendable (that’s the basic military definition of what a soldier is). Powered armour makes them much stronger but has the fatal flaw that it also makes them a more tempting target (especially if it costs several million dollars for each suit).
In the end you would need 10 tons of armour to overcome RPG's and then someone would use tank type guns on you and only sci-fi technology could defend against that.
The main thing on the battlefield is not to be a target and anything that attracts bullets is a big negative. I would guess powered armour for real is at least 50 years away because of this alone.
There are many good places for power suits though, the construction industry, machine assembly, scientists, firemen, forestry workers, even nurses. (one of the real 'suits' I've seen a picture of was being developed to help nurses lift heavy patients.)
As for the sci-fi version, I love playing with things like gravity engines, ftl, teleportation etc. and I think that personal force fields probably are among the most difficult of all the technologies. Armour must absorb kinetic energy and an energy field that can stop a bullet would be on the wrong side of the E=mc^2 relation so it would need staggering amounts of energy. This problem is still easy compared to shaping the energy field and stopping the energy being dissipated though
(Creating and reinforcing a free air hologram is actually the most difficult of all the sci-fi technologies. Holograms are formed by interference patterns which require a stable diffraction substrate - and which air is not!. Even ordinary holograms are a brutally difficult technology.)
In the end you would need 10 tons of armour to overcome RPG's and then someone would use tank type guns on you and only sci-fi technology could defend against that.
The main thing on the battlefield is not to be a target and anything that attracts bullets is a big negative. I would guess powered armour for real is at least 50 years away because of this alone.
There are many good places for power suits though, the construction industry, machine assembly, scientists, firemen, forestry workers, even nurses. (one of the real 'suits' I've seen a picture of was being developed to help nurses lift heavy patients.)
As for the sci-fi version, I love playing with things like gravity engines, ftl, teleportation etc. and I think that personal force fields probably are among the most difficult of all the technologies. Armour must absorb kinetic energy and an energy field that can stop a bullet would be on the wrong side of the E=mc^2 relation so it would need staggering amounts of energy. This problem is still easy compared to shaping the energy field and stopping the energy being dissipated though
(Creating and reinforcing a free air hologram is actually the most difficult of all the sci-fi technologies. Holograms are formed by interference patterns which require a stable diffraction substrate - and which air is not!. Even ordinary holograms are a brutally difficult technology.)
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- #112
zesban
- 26
- 0
Well from what I see here it seems like the idea is that the power armor would be for the defense of the soldier, almost like making them a walking tank. I tend to disagree with this view. The reason for power armor is to increase overall combat effectiveness. The battle field is about more than who shoots who with the bigger gun.
The idea here is to assist the soldier in navigation, endurance, tactical manuevers, provide protection, etc...
An enclosed environmental suit would shield a soldier from dire environmental effects such as heat and cold or weather in general, providing an enclosed breathing system to protect against chemical and possibly biological attacks. The armor, while not standing up to heavy caliber shells or rockets and other highly explosive incendiary devices, would protect against smaller calibers and some shrapnel and other possible sources of injury. It would also assist the soldier in movement, increasing endurance and allowing for easier navigation of the battlefield, which is not a static place and takes a lot of work to get around. Taking the high ground, as it were, is easier for someone who can run or climb twice as fast or jump twice as high, especially if it takes only half the effort of a normal fit soldier to do so. This is not to mention that this soldier could carry upwards as 100 times as much weight with the same effort.
Additionally, because this suit is a powered suit it would be a natural extension to build a point to point communcation array and possibly other automated software into it. This would allow for real time updates to orders, images of the terrain and tactical field data storage and analysis software, a heads up display could even be built into the suit which could provide the soldier with all kinds of information that would benefit them greatly.
The suit could monitor a soldiers condition and position, reporting this back to a base camp, allowing them to immediately know if a soldier has been injured or is in need of assistance and locate them. This increases the likelyhood of saving that soldier's life.
A number of these benefits translate even to peacetime operations, such as relief efforts, peacekeeping, rescue, and transport operations.
The application of a suit like this is not to make the soldier a walking tank, but a versatile member of the armed forces by enhancing mobility and effectiveness. I'd like to think that not only is this a rather good idea as it can save lives, but that it is not as far off as we think. I think if it were pursued with any real effort, and by effort I mean funding research and development, it could be accomplished within a decade, not half a century. DARPA has already taken an interest in the development of exoskeletons and could use this as a basis to lead into power armor research. That's where I sit on the issue anyway.
The idea here is to assist the soldier in navigation, endurance, tactical manuevers, provide protection, etc...
An enclosed environmental suit would shield a soldier from dire environmental effects such as heat and cold or weather in general, providing an enclosed breathing system to protect against chemical and possibly biological attacks. The armor, while not standing up to heavy caliber shells or rockets and other highly explosive incendiary devices, would protect against smaller calibers and some shrapnel and other possible sources of injury. It would also assist the soldier in movement, increasing endurance and allowing for easier navigation of the battlefield, which is not a static place and takes a lot of work to get around. Taking the high ground, as it were, is easier for someone who can run or climb twice as fast or jump twice as high, especially if it takes only half the effort of a normal fit soldier to do so. This is not to mention that this soldier could carry upwards as 100 times as much weight with the same effort.
Additionally, because this suit is a powered suit it would be a natural extension to build a point to point communcation array and possibly other automated software into it. This would allow for real time updates to orders, images of the terrain and tactical field data storage and analysis software, a heads up display could even be built into the suit which could provide the soldier with all kinds of information that would benefit them greatly.
The suit could monitor a soldiers condition and position, reporting this back to a base camp, allowing them to immediately know if a soldier has been injured or is in need of assistance and locate them. This increases the likelyhood of saving that soldier's life.
A number of these benefits translate even to peacetime operations, such as relief efforts, peacekeeping, rescue, and transport operations.
The application of a suit like this is not to make the soldier a walking tank, but a versatile member of the armed forces by enhancing mobility and effectiveness. I'd like to think that not only is this a rather good idea as it can save lives, but that it is not as far off as we think. I think if it were pursued with any real effort, and by effort I mean funding research and development, it could be accomplished within a decade, not half a century. DARPA has already taken an interest in the development of exoskeletons and could use this as a basis to lead into power armor research. That's where I sit on the issue anyway.
- #113
SkepticJ
- 243
- 1
What everyone seems to be talking about is a five meter tall bipedal robot suit. This could be overkill. What would actually be useful in urban combat, jungle, mountains ect. would be about a 2.5-3 meter suit. The frame would be made of nanotube composites that are encased in several layers of titanium-tungsten alloy fabric(or metal glass alloy). The actuators would be electrical carbon nanotube muscles, which only need a little power to run. The power would be stored via a tank of adenosine triphosphate, which is used to generate electricity. A superconducting loop could be used to store power instead and in high densities. Weapons technology would be much smaller by then so the exoskeleton's advantage would be carrying supplies, running faster, tearing down walls, leaping etc. The hands and feet would be equiped with titanium claws and setae adhesive pads for scaling walls. Weapons would be metal glass bullets, mini HE rockets, entomopter and gecko grenades and would have a fleet of Roboflies swarming around a several km radius around the "mech" looking for enemies. Perhaps these flybots could inject deadly ricin poison into unwary troops as easily as a mosquito.
- #114
zesban
- 26
- 0
Well that is rather specific. A few things...
First, could we get some sources on these technologies, ie websites, textbooks, articles, etc...? Especially statistics on power usage on a nanofiber actuator and the power source you referenced. That is where my interest lies.
Second, why assume everyone here is discussing the larger suit? The 2.5 to 3 meter model is what I and a few others have been discussing all along. Actually closer to 2 to 2.5 meters.
Third, why robo-flies? Is this in and of itself inspired from a specific source? Other than Berkley's breakthrough of course.
Any answers are welcome. Thanks for the input so far!
First, could we get some sources on these technologies, ie websites, textbooks, articles, etc...? Especially statistics on power usage on a nanofiber actuator and the power source you referenced. That is where my interest lies.
Second, why assume everyone here is discussing the larger suit? The 2.5 to 3 meter model is what I and a few others have been discussing all along. Actually closer to 2 to 2.5 meters.
Third, why robo-flies? Is this in and of itself inspired from a specific source? Other than Berkley's breakthrough of course.
Any answers are welcome. Thanks for the input so far!
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- #115
spartan
- 6
- 0
Hey guys, first post, but I found a site that seems to have answers to some of your questions : http://www.dcr.net/~stickmak/JOHT/joht15poweredarmor.htm
Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to come up with any real ideas of my own, so I was hoping that this would inspire some of you guys, and maybe get more people to participate in the topic.
Also, for any of you that haven't already, I would definitely suggest you read the book "Armor" by John Steakley, or "Halo: The Fall Of Reach" which I believe is by Eric Nylund. Both contain some pretty awesome powered armor, especially the Halo books.
Unfortunately I'm not smart enough to come up with any real ideas of my own, so I was hoping that this would inspire some of you guys, and maybe get more people to participate in the topic.
Also, for any of you that haven't already, I would definitely suggest you read the book "Armor" by John Steakley, or "Halo: The Fall Of Reach" which I believe is by Eric Nylund. Both contain some pretty awesome powered armor, especially the Halo books.
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- #116
SkepticJ
- 243
- 1
zesban said:
Small hard to see and destroy scouts. They will be cheap so each suit could have hundreds reporting back its findings. Plus can you imagine how paranoid enemy troops would become if any fly they hear or see isn't really a fly but is going to kill them. Maybe they would wear bee keeper outfits. But a fly with a metal needle could just poke through that.
I thought everyone was talking about a five or more meter "mech". That's what I think would be overkill in cities. It'd be to big to go through doors.
- #117
SkepticJ
- 243
- 1
zesban said:
ATP is what biological cells run off of. It's an efficient storer of energy. I don't know how well it'd work for generating electrical power. I was just throwing out something for someone to play with.
Nanotube muscles are hard to find data on also. But I can tell you that so far they've been able to make ones that contract at twice the speed human muscle can and with one hundred times the force. Our little mech trooper could pick up and throw a car. http://www.pa.msu.edu/cmp/csc/NANOTUBE-99/abstracts/77.html <--this is really old.
Another possible improvement to an exoskeleton design would be to have one or several small roller blade like wheels on the knee pads so one could get through short spaces without the knees rubbing and slowing the trooper down.
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- #118
zesban
- 26
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I was aware of the stats on nanofiber muscles, check out the link in one of my posts higher up on this board if you want a really in depth study of carbon nanofiber. The link is the one regarding electromechanics, though the article covers much more than that. As far as the biologically inspired power source, I'm going to have to do more research into this, but it sounds very promising. Thanks for some new ideas. I just wish I knew what kind of power draw a nanofiber muscle system requires, especially to operate in the capacity we're looking at.
The wheels on the knees would be a good idea, got any on waste processing? I think a resevoir for hydration would be a good idea, with as much physical activity as the wearer will be performing. And the suit should also have a way to deal with sweat, lest the wearer chafe like the dickens, heh... Climate control within it would be a fantastic feature!
The wheels on the knees would be a good idea, got any on waste processing? I think a resevoir for hydration would be a good idea, with as much physical activity as the wearer will be performing. And the suit should also have a way to deal with sweat, lest the wearer chafe like the dickens, heh... Climate control within it would be a fantastic feature!
- #119
SkepticJ
- 243
- 1
zesban said:
They might just wear diapers like astronauts do. Maybe they'd have shoulder straps though, for the really heavy days.
I think about a three to five Liter version of one of these would be sufficient. Plus another 2-3 liter one filled with a thick Gatoraid-like liquid food.
The trooper should wear liquid cooled undies like astronauts wear on spacewalks to keep them cool. In Arctic cold conditions the underware has hot liquid flowing through the tubes.
http://www.foresight.org/Nanomedicine/Respirocytes1.html#Sec1 in their blood stream could be useful when the trooper needs to go underwater.
The suit should have filters capable of dealing with chemical and biological agents as well as filtering air from fires and cooling the air so it doesn't burn the trooper's lungs. Perhaps a compressed air supply that lasts 60+min. The gas could be compressed in tens of millions of respirocytes in a tank on the back or sides of the legs or somewhere. The purpose of doing this is one large tank couldn't be shot and go off like a bomb. Some hypothetical enemy weapon would have to be able to break millions of micron sized tanks. Are gains of sand destroyed when a barrel of it is shot or bombed?
- #120
zesban
- 26
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The Gatoraid idea is a good one as you'd need more then water when that active.
As for the Respirocytes, I haven't heard about these either. And regarding the grains of sand question, I can't really say I've studied the forensics of such a scenario.
Most of these features that have been brought up are great, but what I'm really concerned with right now is the idea of a working suit. A prototype. Additional features are tertiary concerns, relegated to the end product design. Crawl before you walk and all that jazz.
I'm still trying to find specs on the power usage of nanofiber actuators and a power source compact enough to integrate into such a suit. Then there's the question of control and feedback. What kind of drive mechanism are we talking about here? Sensors responding to input and controlling the suit electronically, mechanical systems built right into the structure, some third option? Man is it hard to crawl...
As for the Respirocytes, I haven't heard about these either. And regarding the grains of sand question, I can't really say I've studied the forensics of such a scenario.
Most of these features that have been brought up are great, but what I'm really concerned with right now is the idea of a working suit. A prototype. Additional features are tertiary concerns, relegated to the end product design. Crawl before you walk and all that jazz.
I'm still trying to find specs on the power usage of nanofiber actuators and a power source compact enough to integrate into such a suit. Then there's the question of control and feedback. What kind of drive mechanism are we talking about here? Sensors responding to input and controlling the suit electronically, mechanical systems built right into the structure, some third option? Man is it hard to crawl...
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