Creating a Working Prototype of Armor to Move with You

[Allah]

Kojac, then what would you do if you had to go in the suit?

 

[Kojac]

I'd have gone beforehand, first off, and otherwise, i'd have a little door that opened over my bum so i could keep the suit clean.

on a more serious note... supposing we can't make a form-fitting battle suit, how small do you guys think it's possible to get a humanoid tank/mobile armor unit? think powered armor, but bigger...something you pilot with your movement rather then wear, something that is at least 2-3 times as tall as a man. how feasible would that be? (due to obvious advantages in mobility)

 

[Allah]

kojac, you didn't answer the question. What would you do if you had to go while you were in the suit? Not before you got in.

I don't think that the suit is feasible today because it doesn't seem very agile nor fast. It would be a slowly moving target for RPG's, grenades, suicide vehicles, mines and anything else you can think of. I think it is wiser to invest in vehicles like the stryker and abrams.

 

[Kojac]

oh...haven't looked here in a while. they'd deal with it like they do in a spacesuit. AND the point is to make it faster then a normal human, and more heavily armored. think...amplifying strength, speed, and durability. we don't have a powersource we could mount on it that would drive it, at this point, unless we significantly increased the size. we might be able to rig up a reciever for wireless electricity. that, however, would require quite a large field generator.

 

[Multiades]

Hello all, this is my first post on the forum. I found this thread by a Google search, and the topic is of particular interest to me. I've been pursuing the idea since about 4th grade or so, and I read Heinlein's most excellent book Starship Troopers in 6th grade which gave me more encouragement.

I'm completing a senior design project for my BS in mechanical engineering right now that deals with this very subject, and while the project in itself is cursory, I believe believe it is very realistic to implement this concept as a whole in the not-so-far future.

I was impressed by BLEEX (Berkeley Lower Extremety EXoskeleton), but I think it misses the point on many levels and is more cumbersome than necessary. I suppose I shouldn't knock their efforts if I haven't yet duplicated or bettered them -- it is impressive nonetheless.

-Chris Wood

 

[LURCH]

Welcome to the Forums, Chris! Always good to see a for-real engineering major join in the discussion.

 

[Multiades]

Welcome to the Forums, Chris! Always good to see a for-real engineering major join in the discussion.

Thanks man! I find my total undergraduate knowledge to be a bit dissapointing at times, and I really wish I made it through a different program, but I guess you could say that I woke up late.

What I lack in outright knowledge I make up for in engineering instinct (read: "common sense" analysis), but anyhow...


Yeah, this is probably one of my favorite topics; I strongly believe powered armor to be more feasible than the less optimistic of us have suggested. Having extensive experience with reciprocating powerplants of very high specific outputs, I believe that a chemical (gasoline, kerosene, diesel, alcohol, etc) power supply is the most effective for such a frame. My design is pneumatic, and certainly much could be achieved BEFORE focusing on portable power, but I strongly believe that a 50-100cc reciprocating engine or a small turbine would be more than adequate with the right system.

By far the BIGGEST obstacle is nailing down a lightweight, robust anthropomorphic design with solid mounting points and space for the power hardware. Secondly, ironing the kinks out of a control system is very important -- I got around the complexity issue by using a direct, mechanical "bang-bang" control system with simple valves instead of electronic pressure sensors and electronic hardware to sort out the responses.

I sincerely believe the power source to be a small part of the total engineering solution.

Incidentally, if there are other engineers (or interested parties) in MA or the general New England area, I wouldn't mind getting together for a chat sometime.

Thanks,
-Chris

P.S. I think the last thing I needed was to join another VBB forum to chat and speculate about technology.

I'm also on a 3000GT/Stealth board with nearly 5,000 technical posts.

 

[drag]

Wouldn't the greatest difficulties for an effective system of this type
be the sensors and software, and the materials (light, strong) ?
The mechanical structure seems like a lesser problem
that can be solved if the above are dealt with.
I'm not sure that such a small engine would do, but partially
it depends on what you want to do, of course.
Also, there's the service life issue.

 

[Multiades]

Wouldn't the greatest difficulties for an effective system of this type
be the sensors and software, and the materials (light, strong) ?
The mechanical structure seems like a lesser problem
that can be solved if the above are dealt with.
I'm not sure that such a small engine would do, but partially
it depends on what you want to do, of course.
Also, there's the service life issue.

Difficult, yes -- but much of that would be trial-and-error sensitivity adjustment. Moving to an electronic system would likely even improve the ease of tuning (once a basic system is functioning).

Most important, IMO, is the frame and joint design by which each axis is isolated to one pure motion to prevent compound/complex motion and simplify the control scheme. It IS the obstacle to clear before the control system can even really be considered, since no one has a successful total-frame design yet.

As for the engine, consider the supply needs of such a system if it were to be pneumatic... UNDER 200psi would do nicely, and perhaps 10scfm of air. That could be accomplished with around 10hp -- no problem for a well-tuned 50cc reciprocating engine, and could be made very compact to boot.

-Chris

 

[drag]

O.K. So what Kind of features would such a system have ?
I assume you could lift very heavy weights, though controlling
your center of weight during such an act would probably be quite
difficult. Running & jumping a lot better (if them soft problems are
solved too). Breaking things. What else ?

 

[drag]

btw, I appologize for being rude , better later than never -
Welcome to PF Multiades !

 

[Multiades]

O.K. So what Kind of features would such a system have ?
I assume you could lift very heavy weights, though controlling
your center of weight during such an act would probably be quite
difficult. Running & jumping a lot better (if them soft problems are
solved too). Breaking things. What else ?

I would consider the advantages of the suit to be the natural by-products of its design rather than "features", but that's just semantics.

Some are very obvious -- the fictional system envisioned by R.A.H. in Starship Troopers worked on a very simple reverse-feedback principle. The actuators move when the wearer moves against the inside of the suit; whatever way the wearer tries to move against the suit, it "moves out of the way" of the path of the wearer's limb, and so duplicates his motion.

What does this accomplish?

*There is zero learning curve; you just wear it and it works. Sure, some of the more sensitive tasks would take a little practice, but basic movement should be immediate. There is no control interface to learn.

*The suit completely isolates the wearer from external loads (aside from gravity and inertia). Lifting a 20lb barbell takes zero effort; similarly lifting a 200lb person takes zero effort -- in fact both loads would feel the same unless the control system was designed to offer resistance.

Balance would be relatively hard to get right, but I don't envision needing gyroscopes or artificially-supplied balance. With a properly sensitive control system, the wearer could balance him or herself either immediately or with a little practice.

Jumping... you would almost certainly be able to jump higher, but there is some question about landing safely when coming down from a height. Would you be able to jump higher than you could tolerate on landing? Probably not. If you hop down from a 20' ledge, your technique could be the difference between a smooth landing and a concussion -- but a properly designed frame should almost completely prevent the possibility of broken bones.

Also, some of this concerns the way that the wearer is "strapped in" which could be done many different ways. I figure the more firmly affixed the better. Can you imagine what would happen if the user was able to wriggle around to oppose one of the joints (like the elbow)?

btw, I appologize for being rude , better later than never -
Welcome to PF Multiades !

Thanks! Rude? Hardly -- unless you deleted a post that I never saw.

-Chris

 

[drag]

I would consider the advantages of the suit to be the natural by-products of its design rather than "features", but that's just semantics.

O.K. but like you hinted that's "a bit" not the engineering approach.
Or as a favourite fictional figure with pointed ears, I like quoting, would say:
"Illogical".

It will be too costly and sophisticated for construction works, factories
don't need such complications either, military uses are limmited by
service life and in short urban engagements it would likely be
uncomfortable due to size and speed limitations. Maybe rescue
operations for collapsed buildings or for firemen ?

Live long and prosper.

 

[Multiades]

O.K. but like you hinted that's "a bit" not the engineering approach.
Or as a favourite fictional figure with pointed ears, I like quoting, would say:
"Illogical".

It will be too costly and sophisticated for construction works, factories
don't need such complications either, military uses are limmited by
service life and in short urban engagements it would likely be
uncomfortable due to size and speed limitations. Maybe rescue
operations for collapsed buildings or for firemen ?

Live long and prosper.

I don't want to talk about service life, limitations, and "too costly and sophisticated" until they have been built and determined as such. I believe that has been said about more than one invention that is in widespread and practical use today.

Cheers,
-Chris

 

[zesban]

You know, power armor would be sweet!

Anyway, first post, but this topic has been great to review. A lot of you have some really great resource links.

I noticed someone mentioned construction material. Check out the following:

http://www.liquidmetal.com

Twice as strong as steel, lighter, cheaper to make, better memory, more resistant to thermal expansion and corrosion, and has a cast strength that makes steel manufacturers weep. (Strong steel usually has to be forged.)

Very cool stuff.

As for power, what about an RTG that also reuses heat generated by operation to increase power efficiency? Oh, and carbonfiber nano tubes as artficial muscles used to assist movement instead of mechanical drive mechanisms. Less likely to break, less maintenance.

Just wanted to throw some ideas out there. Feel free to tear into them!

"One hundred million lemmings can't be wrong!"
- Graffiti

 

[whisper]

Hafnium is a beautiful metal, just beautiful.

Hafnium is a beautiful metal, just beautiful. It's also very useful, because it likes to give up electrons to the air around it.

Hafnium excited with a low power microwave produces wonderful blue plasma of pure electrons and a surprisingly substantial amount of very useful heat.

66 ounces of hafnium excited by microwave energy produces enough electrical and thermal energy to power a predator size aircraft for 1 week.

Check it out, the information is out there on the net.

If "you" are dreaming it, It's probably already been built.

Cheers

 

[drag]

I suppose you'll be the first (and last) volunteer for such a suit ?

 

[whisper]

hmm.. why would that be?

Hafnium is inert, that is to say you could eat it if you were so inclined with no ill effects beyond the obvious gastronomical protestation .

Seriously when excited it does produced non-ionizing gamma radiation that would indeed produce, uncomfortable side effects to put it mildly. But the gamma radiation produced is low energy and with a modest amount shielding, not a problem.

I'm sure that it's possible to build a compact system say the size of modern re-breathing scuba apparatus which can comfortably power an electric vehicle the size of an civilian suv.

Just a thought.

cheers

 

[drag]

Greetings !

Didn't find the info. Where's the energy coming from ?
(Only possible thing I can think of is fission = not user friendly.)

Peace and long life.

 

[zesban]

From what I read it would appear that Hafnium must be first be placed into an excited nuclear state, known romantically as Hf178m2. This extra nuclear energy radiates over a 31 year half life, making Hafnium pretty unique as most isomers placed in an excited state have a half life shorter than a minute. The energy it sheds is given off as a gamma radiation and after it collapses to it's next state, it has a 7 second half life before returning to nuclear ground state.

A scientist at the University of Dallas claims that he has caused Hf178m2 to collapse into it's next half life stage immediately, as opposed to taking 31 years to do so, which yields all of the potential gamma radiation at once, by exposing the isomer to x-ray radiation. Only he has been able to perform the experiment.

According to his results, you get a 50-60 times energy return on the gamma radiation shed from what you use in the x-ray trigger. This is potentially a very promising energy source, and weapon. The thing is because this isn't a release acting the weak or strong force, but simply on the energy state of the particle, it doesn't fall under any known non-proliferation treaties. This has naturally grabbed the attention of the U.S. Military, though the scientific community at large has a problem with this as no other scientist can verify the results. They think this process isn't actually possible and the military is chasing phantoms while angering the international community by persuing such a weapon.

Check it out:

http://www.globalsecurity.org/wmd/intro/hafnium.htm

 

[drag]

Thank you for the info - very interesting, zesban.

At any case then, even assuming that it works and that a
small X-ray emitter could be used, the big problem for a backpack
generator of this sort, as I suspected in the first place, would still
be shielding and energy conversion of the gamma radiation.

Live long and prosper.

 

[zesban]

I agree. While it would be suitable as a weapon, I think there are better avenues to explore for energy sources. I had made the suggestion of using an RTG, or Radio-isotope Thermal Generator a while back. I still think it would be pretty cool.

An RTG produces electrical current based off of the Seebeck thermalelectric effect. Basically it takes two units, coupled together, that have radically different thermal states. The excitation due to thermal energy of one unit creates pressure which then flows to the other unit, generating current.

See the following link:

http://www.wws.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/byteserv.prl/~ota/disk1/1994/9423/942306.PDF

While the RTGs discussed weigh approximately 1-2 tons, they also produce anywhere from 9-20 Watts constantly for at least a 30 year lifespan. If these generators could be scaled down for uses in the armor I think they would make an effective power source.

See, the community has developed this carbon fiber nanotubing that acts like muscle. When you apply an electric current to it it contracts and then relaxes when current is removed. But it's 100 times as powerful as muscle, approximately, per similar densities.

http://www.eikos.com/articles/carbnano_routetoapp.pdf
(This is a lengthy article but discusses a number of applications for this material. Look under Electromechanical Devices, it's in the second half of this section.)

The generators would provide the current needed to drive the nano tubing throughout an armored exoskeleton. These methods would eliminate a lot of moving parts making the suit pretty reliable for away missions and with such an efficient power source you include a number of other tools.

The suit itself would have to be as lightweight as possible. I would suggest components of Liquidmetal Steel and Tungsten alloyed or Ceramic Aluminum composite. This would provide a very strong, very corrosion resistant, light weight, and heat resistant material with which to craft the armor. Any heat generated could be fed back into the RTG to improve efficiency.

http://www.liquidmetal.com
http://www.astromet.com/alumina-ceramic-amalox68.htm

Right now I can't decide between the steel or the alumina. I wanted to bounce these ideas off of the posters here as a lot of good knowledge is being thrown around here.

 

[drag]

Titanium could be good too.

The muscle idea sounds cool. Though, the "good old"
motor would probably be better for the major parts.

 

[zesban]

The problem with titanium by itself would be that it isn't as resistant to corrosion and not strong enough. When you alloy it with steel it would solve these problems, but then it is heavier then these other materials.

Motors are nice, but they break. Often right when you need them the most. They also require a lot of chemicals, i.e. coolants, lubricants, etc...

By eliminating the moving parts you create a much longer lived field suit. The "muscles" would have the capabilities to lift a ton or more and be approximately the size of a man's arm in volume.

If we had a motor with no friction that didn't need coolant or other chemicals that need regular replacement than I would consider it equitable. Or if the motor could far outperform the nanotubes. I haven't seen anything like this out there though, but I'm always willing to be enlightened.

I like that people are still talking about this stuff though. Very cool, and I bet it'll happen, a lot sooner than people think too...

 

[whisper]

Very true, exposure to Gamma radiation is very harmful; Gamma rays are stopped only by direct collision with an atom and are therefore dangerously penetrating.

Conventional thought would have you strap on several hundred kilograms of lead to reduce the amount radiation you are exposed to. Now enter if you will the world of Plasma Physics and Magneto hydrodynamics; while magnetic fields alone do not stop Gamma Rays, magnetic fields can contain plasma and plasma is where the magic happens.

Here are the principals:

Very High Density Plasma forms a barrier with which the Gamma radiation collides, on collision with the VHDP barrier the Gamma Rays trajectory is deviated to such a degree the radiation becomes briefly trapped within the plasma giving up more energy with every collision.

By the time the radiation moves beyond the plasma it has attenuated to the point that most of the radiation will not pass through the reactor housing and the radiation that does would be no more harmful than the radiation given off by a standard CRT.

The byproduct of the process is heat and free electrons.

Q: What about the heat you say, how could anyone survive with that sort of heat strapped to their back?

A: Now bear in mind that were talking about a containment core roughly the size of a grapefruit.

“In the 1980s, Scott Backhaus and Greg Swift at the Los Alamos National Laboratory realized that compression/expansion action could be used to cool and heat metal plates placed in the path of a sound wave.”

Radio waves also work and have actually been used for near absolute zero experimentation.

I think you see where this is going. Waste heat management was never an issue.

Q: Great what about Electricity, where does that come from?

A: The free electrons are harvested from within the core through electron migration and thermal coupling. Again producing enough electrical energy needed to power an SUV sized electrical vehicle.


Whisper

 

[kirkmcloren]

If you like electron emitters try cesium.

BTW you aren't going to shield a backpack gamma emitter with a magnetic field.

 

[whisper]

Thats correct, magnetic fields can't stop gamma radiation. Plasma on the other hand works wonderfully. Megnetic fields only keep the plasma where and in what shape you want it.

The plasma is the radiation sheild.

Whisper

 

[drag]

Do you have a link on such plasma radiation shields ?
Never heard of this before, for some reason.
It could be considered for space applications too, if it works.

Peace and long life.

 

[kirkmcloren]

Thats correct, magnetic fields can't stop gamma radiation. Plasma on the other hand works wonderfully. Megnetic fields only keep the plasma where and in what shape you want it.

The plasma is the radiation sheild.

Whisper

You had it right when you said:
Gamma rays are stopped only by direct collision with an atom and are therefore dangerously penetrating.

Plasma has no enhanced gamma interception. Stipping electron(s) from a nucleus reduces the capture area, not enhances it. Someone yanked your crank when they sold you on plasma as a wonderful shield. A solid has lots more atoms per unit volume than a gas.

 

[whisper]

"Plasma has no enhanced gamma interception."
That is based on scientific theories made when the scientific community had very limited understandings of Plasma Physics. The fourth state in now understood to range from gaseous to crystalline. That’s as much as you can get from me, however you can google for this information as some of it is already making its way to the public domain.
http://www.iop.org/EJ/abstract/0741-3335/44/12B/319


"Stripping electron(s) from a nucleus reduces..."
What you are referring to is a state of Plasma, Ionization. Ionization is simply a subset of a state of plasma, nothing else. "Plasma can be ionized or not"

There has already been a "RADICAL!" shift in ideas and understandings concerning Plasma Physics and Magneto hydrodynamics, terrestrial and otherwise.

So please believe me when I say it's probably been done. I assure you that I'm no quack; I simply was impressed with you general conversation. I however noticed that you all were limiting yourselves by assuming that no suitable power supply existed, or would be viable in the near future. And that is just not true.

whisper