Curvilinear coordinates question

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers around a mathematical identity involving curvilinear coordinates and the reciprocal frame, specifically examining the expression \(\frac{\partial \mathbf{r}}{\partial u_i }\cdot \nabla u_j = \delta^i_j\). Participants explore the derivation and verification of this identity, addressing a perceived mistake in the calculation that leads to an incorrect conclusion.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant attempts to verify the identity and arrives at an incorrect result involving a factor of \(n\), questioning where the mistake lies.
  • Another participant asks for clarification on how the factor of \(n\) arises in the calculations.
  • A subsequent reply suggests that the issue arises from an incorrect application of the chain rule during the expansion of the inner product.
  • It is noted that the expression \(\frac{\partial x_j}{\partial u_i}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_j}\) does not equal \(\frac{\partial x_j}{\partial x_j}\), indicating a misunderstanding in the manipulation of the derivatives.
  • One participant acknowledges the importance of clearly understanding the functions involved when working with partial derivatives, indicating a learning moment from the discussion.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the application of the chain rule and the resulting calculations. There is no consensus on the resolution of the initial mistake, as participants are still exploring the implications of their calculations.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights the complexity of applying the chain rule in the context of curvilinear coordinates and the potential for misunderstanding when manipulating partial derivatives. Specific assumptions about the functions and their relationships are not fully resolved.

mnb96
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Hello,
given a system of curvilinear coordinates x_i=x_i(u_1,\ldots,u_n); u_i=u_i(x_1,\ldots,x_n) and considering the position vector \mathbf{r}=x_1\mathbf{e}_1+\ldots+x_n\mathbf{e}_n there is the well-known identity that defines the reciprocal frame:

\frac{\partial \mathbf{r}}{\partial u_i }\cdot \nabla u_j = \delta^i_j

I tried to verify it by myself but I cannot see where is the mistake:

\frac{\partial \mathbf{r}}{\partial u_i }\cdot \nabla u_j=

=(\frac{\partial x_1}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial x_n}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_n )\cdot (\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_1 }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_n }\mathbf{e}_n ) =

=n\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial u_i} =

=n\delta^i_j

Why am I getting that wrong multiplication by n ?

------------------------------------------------------
(Funny) EDIT: since there is a well-known proof in every book which correctly shows that the aforementioned inner-product equals \delta^i_j, if no-one manages to find my mistake, our world will have an "amazing" proof that 1=2=...=n for any integer n :)
 
Last edited:
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Why? n\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial u_i}

where does one get n?


What's with the c in \frac{\partial \mathbf{r}}{\partial u_i }\cdot \nabla u_jc= ?
 
ops...ignore that 'c': it was a typo and I removed it.
Back to the main question, let's assume i=j, we have:

<br /> (\frac{\partial x_1}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial x_n}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_n )\cdot (\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_1 }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_n }\mathbf{e}_n ) = <br />

=\frac{\partial x_1}{\partial u_i }\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_1} + \frac{\partial x_2}{\partial u_i }\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_2 }+\ldots+\frac{\partial x_n}{\partial u_i} \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_n }=

=\frac{\partial x_1}{\partial x_1}+\ldots+\frac{\partial x_n}{\partial x_n}=

=1+1+1+\ldots+1=

=n


I know for sure there is a very trivial mistake I should be ashamed of, but I would like to realize where and why it is.
 
You have a problem when you apply the chain rule. When you expand:

<br /> <br /> (\frac{\partial x_1}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial x_n}{\partial u_i }\mathbf{e}_n )\cdot (\frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_1 }\mathbf{e}_1+ \ldots + \frac{\partial u_j}{\partial x_n }\mathbf{e}_n ) <br /> <br />

You do get:

<br /> \frac{\partial x_1}{\partial u_i }\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_1} + \frac{\partial x_2}{\partial u_i }\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_2 }+\ldots+\frac{\partial x_n}{\partial u_i} \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_n }<br />

But:

\frac{\partial x_j}{\partial u_i}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_j}\neq\frac{\partial x_j}{\partial x_j}

Because you have:

u_i\left(x_1\left(u_1,...,u_n\right),...,x_n\left(u_1,...,u_n\right)\right)=u_i

Then:

<br /> <br /> \frac{\partial u_i}{\partial u_j} = \sum^{n}_{k=1}\frac{\partial u_i}{\partial x_k}\frac{\partial x_k}{\partial u_j} = \delta^{i}_{j}<br /> <br />

But that sum, when i=j, is exactly what you obtain when you expand the inner product, and there's no n. Sometimes, the Chain rule is tricky.
 
Last edited:
Thanks a lot JSuarez!
actually once you realize that the situation we had was like u_i\left(x_1\left(u_1,...,u_n\right),...,x_n\left( u_1,...,u_n\right)\right)=u_i[/itex] everything makes perfectly sense.<br /> <br /> In this case the lesson to learn for the novice (me) is probably that when making calculations with partial derivatives, one should always have very clear in mind the actual function he/she is manipulating. Naively relying on notation apparently leads to wrong conclusions.
 

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