Dancing bees and the position of the sun

AI Thread Summary
The discussion centers on the position of the sun in the Northern Hemisphere, particularly above the Tropic of Cancer, and its implications for bee navigation. It is clarified that the sun is only directly overhead in the tropics, while in Northern Europe and Canada, it is never perpendicular to the Earth's surface. This raises questions about how bees, which communicate the location of pollen through a dance that references the sun's position, navigate when the sun is not directly overhead or on cloudy days. Some participants suggest that bees might rely on the hive's location rather than the sun's position for navigation, as the hive's entrance provides a constant reference point. Others argue that the sun's position is crucial for the bees' directional communication, emphasizing the need for further experimentation to understand the relationship between the sun's position and bee navigation. The conversation highlights the complexity of bee behavior and the factors influencing their foraging strategies.
nobahar
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Hello!
I moved this at the recommendation of another mamber (namely, Andre).
I have a question regarding the position of the sun in the sky.
Since it depends on where you are, I am thinking of the Northern hemisphere above the Tropic of Cancer. Say, Northern Europe, Canada, etc.
As the sun moves across the sky, at noon the sun is often referred to as being directly overhead (during certain times of the year). Indeed, it looks as though it is, and shadows seem to suggest that this is the case. However, this would require the suns rays to be perpendicular with the surface of the Earth in these regions. From my reading, I believe that this is never the case.
I ask this because I was reading about dancing bees: bees communicate where pollen is to there friends by dancing. They dance inside the hive on a vertical 'column'. The vertical upwards refers to the position of the sun, and if the bee dances at some angle, say x, to the left of this vertical, it indicates that the pollen is in the direction of angle x, left from the sun in the horizontal plane. In other words, a bee may go outside the hive and face in the direction of the sun. The sun may be up in the sky, not on the horizon, but a line could be drawn, vertically, from the sun onto the horizon, and the location of the pollen would be x degrees to the left of this line. I hope that makes sense.
Now, if the sun is 'directly above', the bee will not be able to establish a bearing. So I was wondering, is the sun ever going to be directly above? I don't think so. But can anyone help with this?
Many thanks!
 
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in the tropics it will be directly overhead at noon on certain days.

I wonder what bees do when its too cloudy to find the sun
 
The Tropic of Capricorn and Tropic of Cancer (both at 23.5 degrees from the equator) define the limits of an overhead sun. Outside this region, the sun is never directly overhead.
 
Thanks for the response Dave.
Yes, the tropics came up in this post when it was under the Earth section. The issue then with what granpa says, about Bees in the tropics (I believe they also navigate in a similar way (they are sthe same in the important aspects: that is, naviagtion via the position of the sun) or on cloudy days, I think it may be something to do with the polarisation of light? I don't know what that means, however. I need to look it up. I was hoping for a response from someone who is familiar with bees, say a beekeeper or a biologist who has studied bees, for a definitive answer to the issue of bee dancing!
 
I am a beekeeper and I have always felt that the dance was no as much in relation to the position of the sun, but rather the location of the hive. If it was in relation to the sun it would depend on what time of day the source was discovered and what time the dance was made. The relationship of the source from the hive makes much more sense since it is a constant, for the most part. This could probably easily be tested.
 
victorg said:
I am a beekeeper and I have always felt that the dance was no as much in relation to the position of the sun, but rather the location of the hive. If it was in relation to the sun it would depend on what time of day the source was discovered and what time the dance was made. The relationship of the source from the hive makes much more sense since it is a constant, for the most part. This could probably easily be tested.

But "the location of the hive" has no angular component.

What is apianese for "go left 60 degrees from here"?
 
If a bee flys out of his hive, he knows left, right and straight, the dance tells him the relation from straight either left or right. This is always constant no matter the time of day. (IE half way between straight out and right ..would be your 45 degrees)...If the sun is used then the bees have to take into account the time of day and the season to get the postition of the sun for reference, that seems like it is an over complication.
 
seems so simple now
 
victorg said:
If a bee flys out of his hive, he knows left, right and straight, the dance tells him the relation from straight either left or right. This is always constant no matter the time of day. (IE half way between straight out and right ..would be your 45 degrees)...If the sun is used then the bees have to take into account the time of day and the season to get the postition of the sun for reference, that seems like it is an over complication.

1] You find it plausible that the "front door" of a bee hive is well-defined in location and direction.

2] You're guessing. Just because a method makes sense to you, does not mean that's how nature got it to work. Why don't we stick with what our experiments show.
 
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1) The "front door" of bee hives rarely changes it location or direction
2) It is well documented that the first flights that juvenile bees take is an orientation flight. In this first flight the go a few feet out from the hive, fly up and down, left and right, and move a little farther away and repeart. I can find documentation for this well know occurence if necessary.
3)I haven't seen any convincing experiments for the sun being a stronger factor, so we would have to assume both are just conjecture.
 
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