Deriving the formula for the change in entropy

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of the formula for the change in entropy in the context of thermodynamics, specifically focusing on the application of the first law of thermodynamics and the relationship between internal energy, heat transfer, and work done during a process. Participants explore the implications of using specific heat at constant volume and the conditions under which certain equations apply.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion regarding the relationship between changes in internal energy (dU) and heat transfer (dQ), particularly in the context of work done (dV ≠ 0).
  • Another participant asserts that dV = 0 is valid for the equation dU = nC_V dT, emphasizing that C_V is defined at constant volume.
  • A later reply clarifies the first law of thermodynamics in differential form, suggesting that the second term in the equation becomes zero under certain conditions, leading to the conclusion that dU can be expressed as C_V dT for an ideal gas.
  • One participant challenges the treatment of work done in the derivation, questioning why dA is left unaddressed while dU is expressed under different conditions.
  • Another participant argues that there is only one process occurring between two thermal equilibrium states, where dV is generally not zero, and that specific heat is an inherent property independent of the process.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit disagreement regarding the application of the first law of thermodynamics and the conditions under which dU and dQ are expressed. Multiple competing views remain about the treatment of work and the implications of specific heat in different processes.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the dependence of certain equations on the conditions of the process (e.g., constant volume) and the assumptions made regarding work done and heat transfer. There are unresolved aspects concerning the treatment of work and the implications of using specific heat values in various contexts.

2sin54
Messages
109
Reaction score
1
Hello. I was reading Hyperphysics website and could not get one particular part. I am providing a picture of the equation I am having trouble with: http://i.snag.gy/W3CC3.jpg
The particular part that puzzles me is the relation around the third equation sign. From the formula there one can think that dU = nCvdT which in itself is the equation for unit of heat transferred (dQ). Obviously it would be correct if there was no work done (dV = 0) but it is not the case here. What am I not seeing here? The full link is http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/therm/entropgas.html
 
Science news on Phys.org
Actually ##dV = 0## is the case as far as the equality ##dU = nC_V dT## is concerned because ##nC_V = (\frac{\partial U}{\partial T})_V##. Remember ##C_V## is the specific heat at constant volume.
 
WannabeNewton said:
Actually ##dV = 0## is the case as far as the equality ##dU = nC_V dT## is concerned because ##nC_V = (\frac{\partial U}{\partial T})_V##. Remember ##C_V## is the specific heat at constant volume.

Hmm. That makes sense, yes. But what still is strange to me is that they use the first law of thermodynamics ( dQ = dU + dA ) to express dQ, then they leave dA without touching it and express dU using the same law again, just in different conditions (dV = 0). So in the end there are *two works* one which is left as pdV while the other one is 0.
 
The first law of thermodynamics can be written, in differential form, as ##dU = dQ - pdV##, where -pdV is the work done by the surroundings as the system moves through a series of quasi-static states. Now take the partial derivative of both sides wrt T at constant V. The result is that $$\left(\frac{\partial U}{\partial T}\right)_V = \left(\frac{\partial Q}{\partial T}\right)_V - p \left(\frac{\partial V}{\partial T}\right)_V $$ The second term on the RHS is zero and the first term is ##C_V##
U is a state variable, so you can always consider a constant volume process between the initial and final states. For an ideal gas U=U(T) so dU = C_V dT.
 
Gytax said:
Hmm. That makes sense, yes. But what still is strange to me is that they use the first law of thermodynamics ( dQ = dU + dA ) to express dQ, then they leave dA without touching it and express dU using the same law again, just in different conditions (dV = 0). So in the end there are *two works* one which is left as pdV while the other one is 0.

There is only one process being done and it's the general one between two thermal equilibrium states of the system wherein ##dV \neq 0## in general and ##\delta W## (##= pdV## for quasi-static process) ##\neq 0## in general, as a result. The specific heat ##c_V## is a property of the system being considered and is entirely independent of the process we are performing on the system in going from one equilibrium state to another. Sure we calculate ##c_V## by taking our system and considering a constant volume process, so as to use ##c_V = \frac{1}{n}(\frac{\partial U}{\partial T})_V##, but this is a one-time deal as it is an inherent property of the system itself and therefore once we calculate ##c_V## we can then use it in calculations for any other process whatsoever taking the system from one equilibrium state to another, such as the general one considered above with non-zero work done by the system.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 7 ·
Replies
7
Views
2K
Replies
14
Views
1K
Replies
5
Views
1K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
9K
Replies
3
Views
2K
  • · Replies 4 ·
Replies
4
Views
18K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
5K
  • · Replies 1 ·
Replies
1
Views
2K
  • · Replies 34 ·
2
Replies
34
Views
3K
  • · Replies 32 ·
2
Replies
32
Views
3K