Determine values of K>0 such that the poles are in left-hand plane?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around determining the values of K>0 for which the closed-loop poles of the given transfer function G(s) = 1 / (s(s+1)(s^2 + 4s + 13)) are located in the left-hand plane, indicating system stability. Participants explore methods for analyzing stability, including phase shift and potential implications of varying K.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests that if K>0, the system might be stable, implying all K>0 could lead to left-hand plane poles, but expresses uncertainty about this assumption.
  • Another participant challenges the initial hypothesis by noting that for sufficiently large K, the system becomes unstable, indicating that K>0 alone is insufficient for stability.
  • A suggestion is made to analyze the phase shift of G(s) as a function of ω, stating that the phase shift is independent of K and can help determine the range of K for stability.
  • It is mentioned that there may be multiple values of ω for which the phase shift reaches π, suggesting a more complex relationship between K and stability.
  • A participant expresses a lack of familiarity with Root-Locus methods, indicating a reliance on other techniques for stability analysis.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the relationship between K and stability. There are competing views on whether K>0 guarantees stability, and the discussion remains unresolved regarding the specific range of K that ensures closed-loop poles are in the left-hand plane.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the analysis may depend on the phase shift and that the relationship between K and stability is not straightforward. The implications of varying K and the conditions under which the system becomes unstable are highlighted but not fully resolved.

annas425
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Given the transfer function G(s) = 1 / (s(s+1)(s^2 + 4s + 13)), how would I determine the range of the values of K>0 such that the closed-loop poles are in the left-hand plane?

Picture of block diagram with transfer function:
swbypj.jpg


Not sure if this is right at all, but I know that a system is stable when K>0, so if the poles were to be in the left-hand plane (i.e., be stable), would it just be for all K>0? I am assuming it's more involved than just that, so I would really appreciate some help please! :)

Thank you in advance!
 
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Start by solving question 3).

Note also that in question 2 you are given the information that for too large K, the system become unstable.
Therefore you hypothesis that K>0 for stability must be wrong. (there was no reason for that)
 
maajdl said:
Start by solving question 3).

Note also that in question 2 you are given the information that for too large K, the system become unstable.
Therefore you hypothesis that K>0 for stability must be wrong. (there was no reason for that)

Well, doesn't the prompt just say that K must be greater than 0?? I am confused...
 
To give you a feel for how k has to range as a function of ω, form an expression for the phase shift of G(s) as a function of ω. This is not hard. The phase shift will be a transcendental equation in ω. The phase shift is independent of k. Then use Excel to run ω over a range of values starting at zero with constant small increments, and ask it to compute the phase shift for each ω. When the phase shift gets to π, put that value of ω into G(s) and solve for the range of k for which |G(s)| < 1. That range of k gives a stable closed loop.

There may be more than one value of ω for which the phase shift is π, so don't quit when you hit pay dirt the first time.

Routh-Hurwitz is seldom used in 'real life' because usually the transfer function is known as gain and phase plots but not in closed form.

I never learned how to do Root-Locus, don't regret it, so can't help you there either. Sorry about both.
 

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