The discussion revolves around the concept of force acting on conductors, particularly in the context of electric motors and Fleming's left hand rule. Participants explore the motion of conductors, the behavior of electrons, and the implications of electromagnetic fields in practical applications.
Participants do not reach a consensus on the interpretation of Fleming's left hand rule or the nature of force acting on conductors. Multiple competing views remain regarding the applicability of concepts to different scenarios, and the discussion remains unresolved.
There are limitations in the discussion regarding assumptions about the behavior of conductors in various magnetic fields and the conditions under which they may exhibit motion. The relationship between electric and magnetic fields is also noted to depend on specific configurations and current types.
I'm trying to understand EMF, I understand current flow - which is the direction of the flow of electrons, I understand the field which goes from north to south, the only thing I can't grasp is the motion of a conductor, I cannot imagine it in my head, what does it mean?mathman said:The force has to do with the motion of electrons within the cable.
sam986 said:... I think of a cable, and last time I checked they are pretty static.
That really isn't true. The basic statement of Flemming's LH rule refers to a single conductor in a magnetic field, with a current running through it. An actual 'Motor' is much more complicated than that but each wire in it will obey Flemmings LH rule. The word "motor" means "causing motion" in this context and not an object you connect up which turns a wheel. (See 'Motor Nerves' in biology)MikeGomez said:That’s because Fleming’s left hand rule for motors applies to electric motors, not single strips of wire like a cable. The magnetic field around a thin wire is much smaller than the electric field (I think the speed of light times smaller). In general the effect is very small and not noticeable.
With electric motors it’s a different story. The motor consists of electromagnets and the magnetic effect is very much more powerful. To see how this is done just look up electromagnets..
They are static when they don't move. It does not mean they cannot move.sam986 said:I can't understand this. When I think of a conductor I think of a cable, and last time I checked they are pretty static. So what is this "force" in practical use?
sophiecentaur said:That really isn't true. The basic statement of Flemming's LH rule refers to a single conductor in a magnetic field, with a current running through it. An actual 'Motor' is much more complicated than that but each wire in it will obey Flemmings LH rule. The word "motor" means "causing motion" in this context and not an object you connect up which turns a wheel. (See 'Motor Nerves' in biology)
sophiecentaur said:The Magnetic Field and the Electric field will each depend upon the Current, in one case and Electric Potential in the other. They can be varied quite independently.
A 12V car battery will easily put 200A through a single thick wire and it will seriously twitch if next to a similar wire. The Force is BIL, where B is the Field, I is the current and L is the length. To get a similar 'twitch' with two high voltage wires, you need a fair old voltage. Under normally achievable conditions, the Magnetic Motor effect is much more significant - which is why they do not use Electrostatic motors.MikeGomez said:Yes, of course there is a magnetic field around a single wire (and Fleming's left hand rule applies) as I indicated by pointing out how much weaker the magnetic field is to to the electric field. I referred him/her to look up electromagnets to see how the magnetic effect can be greatly increased by looping the wires many times, and by wrapping the wires around a ferromagnetic core etc.
I did not know that the magnetic field can be increased while at the same time keeping the electric field low. Thank you. I do need to study electricity/electrictonics more.
nasu said:They are static when they don't move. It does not mean they cannot move.
Here is an experiment showing how it moves:
The usual electric cables are not in strong magnetic fields. And besides, they are made from two wires, carrying currents in opposite directions. And most of the time the current is AC so the force will change direction too fast for conductors to follow.
But with the right conditions, the conductor will move.
The same can be said about a Mathematical Equation, which will apply in All Cases. Maths is a language that expresses Physical concepts better than other media. People are only suspicious of Maths when they do no 'have the Maths'. It's more than a aid - it's sine qua non, as Julius Caesar was heard to remark.sam986 said:nasu, that is exactly what I needed to see to fully understand emf, a picture is worth a thousand words. Thank you.
Well, first you need to understand all of those math symbols, get into habit of knowing them and how they interact with each other. I guess it's hard for people to get into math because it takes so much mental resources and leaves so little for the fun of not knowing, this is why people are more fascinated by illusionists rather than mathematicians. Of course I'm not saying that this statement is justified, rather this is just how things are.sophiecentaur said:The same can be said about a Mathematical Equation, which will apply in All Cases. Maths is a language that expresses Physical concepts better than other media. People are only suspicious of Maths when they do no 'have the Maths'. It's more than a aid - it's sine qua non, as Julius Caesar was heard to remark.
Of course. But people seem to think that anyone can do anything, despite their ability or how much effort they put in. No one would think they could be a concert pianist without a load of graft and an equal load of ability. There are so many posts from people who 1. Reject Maths as being unnecessary 2. Want a "Physical Explanation" of some phenomenon. That approach just will not deliver the goods. I have no problem with people not having the Maths - just the attitude that, in fact, belittles the whole of Science to the level of a video simulation.sam986 said:Well, first you need to understand all of those math symbols, get into habit of knowing them and how they interact with each other. I guess it's hard for people to get into math because it takes so much mental resources and leaves so little for the fun of not knowing, this is why people are more fascinated by illusionists rather than mathematicians. Of course I'm not saying that this statement is justified, rather this is just how things are.