News DNA tests disprove Mormon scripture

[dduardo]

Found this link on dig.com:

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-mormon16feb16,0,5561316.story

I think it is good that people are scientifically testing religious beliefs.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Some will be shocked and some will assume that the science is wrong, but this is pretty big stuff for the Mormons.

 

[Greg Bernhardt]

I'm not sure any amount of scientific findings will ever hurt a religion. Faith is Faith.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

...the tricky God concept. All could be a test of faith.

 

[Cyrus]

Does that mean they will stop coming to my house and try to convert me? Thank god, oh wait...

 

[kmarinas86]

Ok so do the Modern Native Americans have the same phenotypes as the Native Americans of 1000's of years ago? When did they acquire these differing features?

Perhaps in North America there were viruses or what have you that influenced their genome and made their genes very different from the Israelis back at Israel?

Someone needs to do genetic testing of ancient Native American DNA.

 

[kcballer21]

"Some days I am angry, and some days I feel pity," he said. "I feel pity for my people who have become obsessed with something that is nothing but a hoax."

I empathize with this guy.

 

[dduardo]

Ok so do the Modern Native Americans have the same phenotypes as the Native Americans of 1000's of years ago? When did they acquire these differing features?

Perhaps in North America there were viruses or what have you that influenced their genome and made their genes very different from the Israelis back at Israel?

Someone needs to do genetic testing of ancient Native American DNA.

They took tiny fragments of ribs from the ancient bones and extracted the dna. The results are the same: Asia.

 

[scott1]

I'm not sure any amount of scientific findings will ever hurt a religion. Faith is Faith.

I agree no matter what secientific evendince you have your never going to convince people to stop belving in there Faith(which is why it's called Faith) there just going to keep on beleving it.
I think it's insane(sorry if offend anyone ) to believe that native americans are from a lost Isarel tribe for reilguos reasons.The Aztechs you use to go to war just to find people to scarfice and once a year they would cut someones heart and I think they whould take it to the top of there sun temple and roll it down the stairs(I'am not sure if they did this but I know they took out peoples harts).The religous differnce between judism and Native american reilgons form them to have an reilgous improtance of one and another.

 

[dduardo]

Here is a video on the topic:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1178456481485432134&q=dna+mormon

 

[scott1]

Why is this therd posted in the poltics fourm?

 

[dduardo]

Why is this therd posted in the poltics fourm?

Doesn't this fit with world affairs? There are plenty of mormons around the world.

------------------------

Here is a question for you people: If the Book of Mormom, which is supposed to be the word of God, can be invalidated, what does that say about the Bible?

 

[Orefa]

If the Book of Mormom, which is supposed to be the word of God, can be invalidated, what does that say about the Bible?

Any religious book can be invalidated by any other religious book that says something different.

Edit: ...and many of their articles can be invalidated by science and/or just common sense.

 

[dduardo]

Any religious book can be invalidated by any other religious book that says something different.

I'm talking about scientific evidence, not what some other people might have in their mind.

Edit: Ah, you added science. I want to keep this discussion as scientific as possible.Anyway, I don't think their has been scientific evidence against a major religion that is as definitive as in this case.

 

[scott1]

Here is a question for you people: If the Book of Mormom, which is supposed to be the word of God, can be invalidated, what does that say about the Bible?

Nothing the Book of Mormom is in my oppion is insane.Look at the part about the lost tribe Isarel and Native american and there lots other parts in there as well.The story the guy got glasses he fell on rock and saw a angle and a lizzard.

 

[Manchot]

...and many of their articles can be invalidated by science and/or just common sense.

Unless you don't treat it literally...

 

[Orefa]

Unless you don't treat it literally...

That's the trick. Then anything can mean whatever you want it to mean, which makes it a little slippery. It's good politics.

 

[Hurkyl]

If the Book of Mormom ... can be invalidated

To whom has it been invalidated?

Surely this will count as invalidation to those who only accept the scientific method as a path to knowledge, and it holds absolutely no sway over those who only accept religion as a path to knowledge. And for those who accept both, it just provides an interesting quandary to ponder! (Say... akin to the discovery of the photoelectric effect)

 

[Evo]

To whom has it been invalidated?

Surely this will count as invalidation to those who only accept the scientific method as a path to knowledge, and it holds absolutely no sway over those who only accept religion as a path to knowledge. And for those who accept both, it just provides an interesting quandary to ponder! (Say... akin to the discovery of the photoelectric effect)

Hurkyl, the Book of Mormon is based on the church founder saying that American Indians are Israelites, and it was the word of God that told him this and that Jesus came to these American Indian Israelites in 33AD and that is what the entire religion is based on, fiction. Well, as if it wasn't already glaringly obvious that American Indians aren't Israelites, DNA testing has proven it.

Watch the video Dduardo posted if you have any questions.

 

[Hurkyl]

Let me try saying that again, but in more specific terms:

If you take the book of Mormon to be a much higher authority on truth than the scientific method, then this result doesn't invalidate anything. (Except possibly the scientific theory leading to the result)

Even if you take them to be roughly equal authorities, this result doesn't invalidate anything -- it is merely a demonstration that our current understanding is flawed, and provides direction towards refining it.

 

[Gokul43201]

A mormon can easily choose the Book of Mormon as a higher authority on truth than the scientific method...until say, DNA testing shows that s/he is the only descendent of a dead billionaire.

 

[Hurkyl]

If you take money to be the highest authority on truth, then this whole discussion is irrelevant.

 

[Skyhunter]

I'm not sure any amount of scientific findings will ever hurt a religion. Faith is Faith.

To me faith is the ability for one to believe more than one can know.

When something is known it no longer falls under the category of "faith". To cling to a belief in the face of convincing argument is a mental disorder, not a true religious practice.

 

[scott_alexsk]

Here is a question for you people: If the Book of Mormom, which is supposed to be the word of God, can be invalidated, what does that say about the Bible?

Not really for Christians like myself. Most people do not even view Mormanism as a part of Christianity. Actually the disproving of their additions to the bible just reaffirm my faith.
-Scott

Edit: You have to remmeber that there is a verse right at the end of revelation which states that nothing shall be added onto the current scripture, or the curses listed in the bible shall be added unto those who do.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I was a Mormon for a time, but as I learned more about their deep doctrine, they lost me.

They are Christians, btw.

Incredibly, God said that blacks could join the church at the height of the civil rights movement.

But I think the key is that people are brought into a church by other people, not doctrine. And there is the irony that faith doesn't imply correctness; and it doesn't necessarily need to. You see, most people believe that we are saved by faith [and not necessarily by being right].

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Does anyone remember the name of the book found that supposedly supported the Mormon theory. I think it was a thousand or so pages long and had a cult following of it's own. Eventually it was proven a hoax I believe.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

To me faith is the ability for one to believe more than one can know.

When something is known it no longer falls under the category of "faith". To cling to a belief in the face of convincing argument is a mental disorder, not a true religious practice.

You'd be surprised at just how long a religion will cling to beliefs in the face of proof. It took over a hundred years before the Catholic Church would accept the Earth went round the sun and was not the centre of the universe. Despite none of the scripture ever claiming the Earth was the centre of the universe. i suspect the Mormon faith will be around for along time to come.

I had two Mormons come to my house they said

we are missionaries do you know what that is

I said yes it's people who try and spread their faith in other countries.

They said we're from the church of the latter day saints do you know what this is

i said yeah mormons, they looked alittle taken aback by my knowledge of religion. I had realized just how damn good looking the pair were, I would of invitied them in for the pleasure of there company more than out of any conviction that I would be interested in what they had to say.

Unfortunately I was drinking a bottle of wine at the time and knowing how they feel about intoxicants I didn't think it would go down to well. unfortunately despite me saying that they were welcome to come back about it any time and talk about their faith they never returned. I wonder if anyone has ever had that sort of religious experience with the Krishnas or JW's?I like missionaries, where's the beef people?

 

[Astronuc]

I have a couple of Jehovah's Witnesses visit me about once a month. We have interesting discussions, but it eventually comes down to what one 'believes', e.g. believing that a certain text is 'true' or the 'word of some higher authority', regardless of the facts.

I have had interaction with Mormons, Unification, Hare Krishna, . . . . My biggest issue is that most preach or express a dogma with little critical understanding or thinking involved, and they invariably fail to seen inherent inconsistencies or contradictions in the respective doctrine and in what they believe. Furthermore, when they criticize texts of other religions, it is clear they often do not know or understand those texts, nor do they understand the history behind the texts.

Anyway, getting back to the OP, I don't think it will have much impact. Those who accept the scientific method will do so, and those who 'believe' will ostensibly do so.

 

[Anttech]

Mormonism is FULL of contradictions.. This won't have an impact on the hardcore..

Working for a company based in Utah, I am in daily contact with Mormons. To be honest I have nothing bad to say about them, they are "nice" people who are very family orienated. There faith is a Load of BS, but it doesn't take anything away from there "niceness"

 

[Entropy]

I wonder if anyone has ever had that sort of religious experience with the Krishnas or JW's?I like missionaries, where's the beef people?

Me and my mom are JW's. She just started missionary work. You got to spend about 5 years of intense studying before you can offically start to witness. She seems to really enjoys the social aspect of it, even though most of the time you're greeted with extreme hostility. Some people even pull out guns and threaten to shoot us! There is this one witness friend of mine that went to high school with me and he resently went to Thailand to witness instead of starting college. He got lots of scholarships too and won lots of awards, but witnessing is what he loves to do. Last I heard from him he wanted to go back and witness for another year.

 

[Amp1]

The book's narrative focuses on a tribe of Jews who sailed from Jerusalem to the New World in 600 BC and split into two main warring factions.
...According to the Book of Mormon, by 385 AD the dark-skinned Lamanites had wiped out other Hebrews. The Mormon church called the victors "the principal ancestors of the American Indians...

I believe this to be the crux of the matter. The authorities (or Elders) made the assumption that the Lamanites and Nephites are the ancestors of the Native Americans that's where the mistake might have been made.

Disclaimer: I merely bring this up as another POV, I don't have a religious affiliation.

BTW, couldn't the same or some different sort of DNA testing be used to check the validity of some claims made in the Urantiabook about the origin of life and evolution. see: URANTIABOOK.ORG[/URL]

 

[selfAdjoint]

I believe this to be the crux of the matter. The authorities (or Elders) made the assumption that the Lamanites and Nephites are the ancestors of the Native Americans that's where the mistake might have been made.

Disclaimer: I merely bring this up as another POV, I don't have a religious affiliation.

And not only there. Consider that at any somatic gene site the Ark passengers only could contribute ten alleles (Noah's two, his wife's two, and two from each of the son's wives). So if there are more alleles than ten at some genes sites today (and there are), where did they come from?

 

[Anttech]

The mormons didnt come over on Noas ark, but a different one, and if I am not mistaken they were a whole tribe... It really is such a load of BS, but a nice story nether-the-less

 

[Moonbear]

And not only there. Consider that at any somatic gene site the Ark passengers only could contribute ten alleles (Noah's two, his wife's two, and two from each of the son's wives). So if there are more alleles than ten at some genes sites today (and there are), where did they come from?

Well, we do still have something known as random mutation and evolution. In this example, evolutionary theory would work in favor of supporting the religious argument rather than in opposition to it.

As for the Mormon religion, will they lose followers over this discovery? Sure. Religions do lose followers from time to time when they can't reconcile the teachings of the religion with their personal view of the world. Will they lose all their followers? I doubt it; as mentioned above, there are always those who will turn a blind eye to science in favor of their religious faith (if not, there would be nobody believing in ID either). Religions also have a way of adapting, and "bending" the rules to adjust to changing views of the congregation. The difficulty the Mormon religion faces is that unlike many other religions, they claim the Book of Mormon is to be taken completely literally, which means there's a lot less wiggle room to modify interpretations of what it says to make it fit with what quickly becomes obvious to many people as inconsistent with real life evidence. The major change is they're going to have to find a new hook to get people to convert to their religion. I'm somewhat surprised it worked in the first place to tell people something so contrary to common knowledge and fairly racist sounding (they were descendants of those whose skin was darkened because they were bad, and if they convert, they'll become white again?) and have that actually work to convert them rather than completely offending them.

 

[kmarinas86]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1178456481485432134&q=mormon

(DNA --- 9:16)

White need not refer to skin... not as the way that racists usually interpret.

(Before)
It says that Jesus Christ went to the Americas around 33 AD (i.e. supposedly after Christ ascended above the clouds).

Maybe there were 2 or more races at Israel and one of them moved to the Americas, maybe their bones (few) weren't fossilized in Israel, maybe was there another language at Israel (an unwritten one)...

 

[ray b]

has anyone tested Abraham's claim to be from the city of Ur
as I think the jews had a beginning in Egypt as a part of king tut's dad's cult
perhaps DNA tests could prove this

 

[Anttech]

So, the Mormon story could have elements of truth concerning egypto-american history in it. Perhaps that's why some people want to discount it.

Apart from the fact that the DNA history, linguistics history, and Archeological findings all point to the fact that the native americans are from Asia NOT the ME, Asia Minor or North Africa.

This is what I find strange about Mormonism, I know some very inteligent people, scientists even, who can't seem to get there head round that fact that their profit Lied... That the "History of the Americas" that is outlined in the Book of Morrmons is totally fictious...

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Yeah the fact that a lot of Indigenous indian cultures share many genetic characteristics and also the same dificiency in their genes that increases their intolerance to alcohol, much like the Japanese and Chinese, is pretty good evidence of their roots. I would take anything else with a pinch of salt personally but then I'm not a Mormon.

 

[quantumcarl]

Yeah the fact that a lot of Indigenous indian cultures share many genetic characteristics and also the same dificiency in their genes that increases their intolerance to alcohol, much like the Japanese and Chinese, is pretty good evidence of their roots. I would take anything else with a pinch of salt personally but then I'm not a Mormon.

:zzz:
Its not as simple as you seem to think it is. There has been more than one migration to the Americas from more than one place on the planet. There is a weath of DNA amongst the many nations, past and present, of the Americas.

Please wade through this report. I am giving a small sample of a very large study that indicates a Dual Migration. It is very detailed with regard to DNA findings and uses highly sophisticated Cytological and Geneological terminology and physiology. Perhaps that's why you're confused about the idea, along with so many others.

The search for the ancestors of the Native American Y chromosomes in Siberia and Asia has revealed that the M3 lineage is found only on the Chukotka peninsula of far northeastern Siberia, among the Chukchi and the Siberian Eskimos (Karafet et al. 1997; Lell et al. 1997). The most recent ancestors of the M3 lineage have been traced to central southern Siberia (Karafet et al. 1999; Santos et al. 1999).

The Siberian RPS4Y-T haplogroup has been located in the Lake Baikal region, east of M3 and its progenitors. This has been interpreted as indicating that these Y-chromosome lineages came to the Americas in distinct migrations (Karafet et al. 1999). Finally, Y chromosomes harboring the Tat polymorphism (haplogroup Tat-C) were found dispersed between native populations of central Asia and northern Europe (Santos et al. 1999), supporting a relatively recent link between these populations (Zerjal et al. 1997).

You'll note in this small sample that the suggested areas migrated from to the americas are Siberia, Northern Europe and Asia.

You can read further on in this outstanding study at this address:

http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJHG/journal/issues/v70n1/013099/013099.text.html?erFrom=-6323885775471212821Guest

And this studies only the "Y" chromosomes of specific nations of the American Native.

 

[Anttech]

Your link is dead...

If there is such a wealth explain why native americans don't have a "wealth" of characteristics? And your short Quote from the link I can't get to, doesn't say anything about your Eygptian claim

 

[Mk]

Finally, I'm glad to see more scientific discussions in Politics and World Affairs.

 

[iansmith]

Several genetic based studies have been done to find where the native american came from. I posted some a few months ago.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showpost.php?p=671032&postcount=4

 

[Skyhunter]

Apart from the fact that the DNA history, linguistics history, and Archeological findings all point to the fact that the native americans are from Asia NOT the ME, Asia Minor or North Africa.

This is what I find strange about Mormonism, I know some very inteligent people, scientists even, who can't seem to get there head round that fact that their profit Lied... That the "History of the Americas" that is outlined in the Book of Morrmons is totally fictious...

What the church should do is admit the mistakes made by the prophet and adjust their faith to encompass the new information.

 

[selfAdjoint]

What the church should do is admit the mistakes made by the prophet and adjust their faith to encompass the new information.

More productive from their point of view would be to interpret the material metaphorically. That's how mainstream churches cope with Genesis. Of course that's how they also lost a lot of their worshipers to the fundamentalists!

 

[Grogs]

White need not refer to skin... not as the way that racists usually interpret.

When there are verses that specifically refer to white skin and black skin, I don't see how it could be interpreted otherwise. My understanding is that white and black have been changed to pure and impure in later versions of the BoM.

This is what I find strange about Mormonism, I know some very inteligent people, scientists even, who can't seem to get there head round that fact that their profit Lied... That the "History of the Americas" that is outlined in the Book of Morrmons is totally fictious...

I don't think it's a matter of intelligence. I call it 'linearity of thought.' Metaphorically speaking, I think everyone lives in a box that represents the limits of what a person is willing to question. Ideas inside the box get examined critically, while everything else gets dismissed out-of-hand. And of course it's not limited to just religion. You can see the same thing in politics, science, and just about any other contentious area of human thought.


I think that, when confronted with conflicting ideas from science and religion, most people choose one of 3 paths: they completely reject science in favor of their religious views, the accept the science and stop believing in the religion, or they take a viewpoint that both must be correct and try to reconcile the two. The more strict the religion, the more people will be polarized to one of the two extreme views rather than taking the middle ground.

 

[SOS2008]

I personally don't care for organized religion in general. However, if there is to be fair debate on this subject why rely on just this one source? The Mormon church has conducted genealogical research years before other entities, and possesses the largest data base in the world for such purposes. I am not interested in debating anything related to religion, but here are some more links for those who are truly interested:

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=305&previous=L3B1YmxpY2F0aW9ucy9ib29rb2Ztb3Jtb252aWV3LnBocA==

http://farms.byu.edu/display.php?table=jbms&id=314&previous=L3B1YmxpY2F0aW9ucy9ib29rb2Ztb3Jtb252aWV3LnBocA==

 

[Evo]

I personally don't care for organized religion in general. However, if there is to be fair debate on this subject why rely on just this one source? The Mormon church has conducted genealogical research years before other entities, and possesses the largest data base in the world for such purposes.

Don't confuse geneology, which is tracing family trees with birth and death records, etc... with the science of genetics. We're discussing DNA. The two are not even remotely close.

 

[quantumcarl]

I personally don't care for organized religion in general. However, if there is to be fair debate on this subject why rely on just this one source? The Mormon church has conducted genealogical research years before other entities, and possesses the largest data base in the world for such purposes.

Don't confuse geneology, which is tracing family trees with birth and death records, etc... with the science of genetics. We're discussing DNA. The two are not even remotely close.

Apparently we're all going to leven (rise up!) where brewer's yeast runs free in the fields of barley flour and roses taste like cinnamon buns and bear's claws (aka fritters).

 

[SOS2008]

Don't confuse geneology, which is tracing family trees with birth and death records, etc... with the science of genetics. We're discussing DNA. The two are not even remotely close.

Agreed. I didn't mean to convey that, only that they are research minded. Also, to say that proper debate involves more than discussing one source, especially if from one side only. The links I provided are educational from BYU.

Apparently we're all going to leven (rise up!) where brewer's yeast runs free in the fields of barley flour and roses taste like cinnamon buns and bear's claws (aka fritters).

I'm not sure what you mean, but now I'm hungry!

 

[Evo]

Agreed. I didn't mean to convey that, only that they are research minded. Also, to say that proper debate involves more than discussing one source, especially if from one side only. The links I provided are educational from BYU.

No, I'm glad you posted their side, of course, they have a specific agenda trying to tap dance around the truth in an effort to salvage what they can. That's completely to be expected, can't blaim them. Fact is, the people doing DNA testing on the American Indians had no agenda, they were not trying to disprove the Book of Morman, it just happened that their findings disprove the story made up in the Book of Mormon.