Does evolution contradict 2nd law of thermodynamics?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion centers on the relationship between evolution and the second law of thermodynamics, exploring whether they contradict each other. Participants examine theoretical implications, misunderstandings, and examples related to entropy in the context of both evolution and cosmology.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Exploratory

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants assert that evolution and the second law of thermodynamics do not contradict each other, emphasizing that local decreases in entropy can occur as long as total entropy increases.
  • One participant suggests that misunderstandings about this relationship may stem from religious arguments against evolution.
  • Another participant argues that the big bang theory violates the second law of thermodynamics, claiming that if the universe were infinitely old, entropy would have stabilized.
  • Concerns are raised about the validity of claims regarding the big bang and its relation to entropy, with calls for peer-reviewed sources to support such assertions.
  • Some participants express frustration over the shifting focus from evolution to the big bang, questioning the relevance of the latter in this context.
  • There is a discussion about the concept of "local entropy," with one participant arguing that the second law was never intended to apply to parts of a system.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach consensus on the relationship between evolution and the second law of thermodynamics, with multiple competing views presented, particularly regarding the implications of the big bang theory.

Contextual Notes

Some claims rely on assumptions about the definitions of entropy and the applicability of the second law to local systems. The discussion includes references to external sources without providing specific citations, leading to unresolved questions about the validity of certain arguments.

lwymarie
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No they do not contradict each other. What is this "passage"? Where is this crap coming from??

Since my answer won't be nearly as convincing as some other people here, i'll look up some previous threads for you unless someone else comes in and fully explains why they are not contrary to one another.
 
The second law of thermodynamics states that the total entropy of the universe will always increase or stay the same. This does not mean that the entropy of any individual objects cannot decrease, as long as the total entropy does not.

It really says nothing about evolution, since creating the "more ordered" (lower entropy) state of evolved life involved greater increases of entropy elsewhere.
 
My guess would be you read this misunderstanding from a religious site trying to convince people that evolution is wrong. Have a reality check:

Do you think scientists are stupid?

The 2nd law of thermodynamics is one of the most basic principles of science, so if you don't think scientists are stupid, then you should assume that this question has come up before. If you do think scientists are stupid, well, you should stop using your computer - it might blow up because of the idiots who designed it...
 
Sorry to everyone :)
 
haha russ, i think you need to use that as the default responses for a lot of the things we get around here. Even high schoolers know what the 2nd law is. Things so incredibly basic are bound to be realized by someone if they are indeed wrong! One must realize what the whole definitions of these laws actually are before start thinking they contradict something.
 
The big bang theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The universe can't be infinitely old, entropy would have stabilized, and it's pretty difficult for anything to exist at a specific time if the time of the universe goes infinitely backwards.

Life forms in general reverse local entropy to some effect. For example, when an object, such a large steel building is contstructed, you end up with raw materials removed from a somewhat scattered state, reorganized into more complex materials and then relocated to create a building. Perhaps the original source of energy for this work was due to the Sun, but the current and local source of energy was oil, coal, or water flowing through a dam.
 
The big bang? Where did that come from and who said the universe is infinitely old?
 
>big bang

Just pointing out an example of violating the 2nd law of thermodynamics.
 
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  • #10
How does the big bang violate the 2nd LT?

whoa, i just had a deja vu moment... i remember writing this exact same sentence before...
 
  • #11
Pengwuino said:
How does the big bang violate the 2nd LT?
Don't ask me, do a web search, plenty of answers out there explaining this. At the moment the universe appeared, there was an initial entropy (call it zero), before it happened there was no universe, and therefore no initial state of entropy.
 
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  • #12
Jeff Reid said:
Don't ask me, do a web search, plenty of answers out there explaining this.

Yah from geocities...

This isn't the place to toss out non-sense theories and refuse to back them up with scientific data
 
  • #13
Jeff Reid said:
The big bang theory violates the 2nd law of thermodynamics.

The universe can't be infinitely old, entropy would have stabilized, and it's pretty difficult for anything to exist at a specific time if the time of the universe goes infinitely backwards.

Life forms in general reverse local entropy to some effect. For example, when an object, such a large steel building is contstructed, you end up with raw materials removed from a somewhat scattered state, reorganized into more complex materials and then relocated to create a building. Perhaps the original source of energy for this work was due to the Sun, but the current and local source of energy was oil, coal, or water flowing through a dam.

1. Do NOT hijack a thread and change to subject matter from "evolution" to "big bang".

2. "local entropy"? Since when is there a question about such a thing? The 2nd Law was NEVER meant to apply to part of a system. This isn't about the entropy of a local system. It should never have been brought up to cloud the issue.

3. When you cite sources to support dubious claim, do NOT simply say "do a web search". You should know by now that crackpot sites isn't a valid reference source on here.

4. Please show a peer-reviewed source that shows that the Big Bang violates the 2nd Law (whatever that means). Create a separate thread in the Cosmology forum and list your sources. If you are unable to cite reputable sources, submit that to the IR forum.

5. This thread is done!

Zz.
 

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