Does Infinity Exist in the Universe?

In summary, the conversation discusses the concept of infinity and whether or not it exists in reality. The consensus is that while it may exist in a conceptual sense, there is no empirical evidence to suggest that anything in existence carries a value of infinity. The discussion also touches on the idea of an unbounded universe and the use of Occam's razor to simplify concepts.
  • #36
Hi Carla,

My overview describes a non-conventional perception of the continuum concept, and the minimal structure of a NUMBER.

As I wrote to you in the previous post, through my point of view, Math Langauge must include our cognition’s abilities to develop it, as a legal part of its research.

By doing this, we may avoid some possible hidden assumptions that can be in the basis of our axiomatic systems.

Through this attitude, I have found that the minimal conditions that gives us the ability to identify and count elements, is strongly based on our ability to associate between some counted elements and our memory.

If ,by analogy, "some elements" means beads, and our memory is a string, then any number which is not 0, can't be less than some necklace.

Most of the Modern Math axiomatic systems are based on the SET concept.

A SET is a finite or infinite collection of objects in which order has no significance, and multiplicity is generally also ignored.

We notate a SET by {}.

The simplest set is the empty set = {} , which means a SET with on objects.

By Math language we use the word "members" instead of "objects".

So, any non-empty set includes some finite or infinite collection of members, and its name depends on some common property of these members.

When mathematicians (the first one was Cantor) researched the properties of some infinite collections of numbers, they discovered that there is more than one level of infinite.

Actually there are infinitely many levels of infinities.

The first infinite level is called the countable infinity and the second type that have been discovered is called the uncountable infinity.

The continuum is the uncountable infinity and above it there are infinitely many levels of infinities, that Modern Math research tries to find and define.

Another question in Modern Math is the Continuum Hypothesis (CH), which tries to find if there is or there is not some infinite set between the countable and the uncountable sets.

Modern Math describes the Continuum as: "Infinitely many points with no gaps between them"

Through my research I have found that it is impossible to define the Continuum by a tool, which has exactly it opposite property.

A continuous line is a non-localized element, and a point is a localized element, so any exploration of a continuous line by infinitely many points, is as if we say:

"If you want to see the darkness, please turn on the lights".

Instead of forcing the continuum to be expressed by its opposite, I associate them without forcing one opposite property on the other, and got a new points of view on these concepts:

Continuum, Discreteness, Number, Infinity, Information, Symmetry and Cognition's abilities to create Math, as a part of Math research.


Professional mathematicians will not accept it, because I change a lot of fundamental paradigms of Modern Math, by this point of view.

Yours,

Doron
 
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  • #37
Ok guys,

I'm going to move this thread to Theory Development (which is under "theoretical physics").
 
  • #38
Carla,
I would not recommend Doron as a primary source for conventional Math/Physics. If you ever wish to learn the conventional view point you will pretty much have forget everything you have read from his material. It is unconventional to say the least.


As for your inital question, I do not believe there is any connection between an open and closed system and stability. That is an entirely separate issue.

ALL Systems are subject to entropy. Entropy is a funamental thermodynamic quantity which canbe computed for any system.
 
  • #39
Hi Carla,
Carla,
I would not recommend Doron as a primary source for conventional Math/Physics. If you ever wish to learn the conventional view point you will pretty much have forget everything you have read from his material. It is unconventional to say the least.
I agree with integral, never take any source as primary source because someone told you to do so.

It is a good idea to know the conventional picture of the above, by finding some good material on it, and then you will decide by yourself
what is your point of view on this subject.

For example, some sources to start with:

Cantor's diagonal's second proof:
http://home.ican.net/~arandall/abelard/math12/Cantor.html

The paper "Logic and Mathematics" is a survey of logic and foundations of mathematics, for the general reader by Stephan G. Simpson, a mathematician at the Pennsylvania State University:
http://www.math.psu.edu/simpson/papers/philmath.pdf

This covers a bit about what numbers are, and how to define them:
http://hemsidor.torget.se/users/m/mauritz/math/num/index.htm

University of Toronto Mathematics Network:
http://www.math.toronto.edu/mathnet/plain/answers/answers.html

The real number system:
http://www.jamesbrennan.org/algebra/numbers/real_number_system.htm

Cauchy Sequences of Rationals:
http://www.mathreference.com/top-ms,real.html

An example of formal detailed paper on the construction of the real number system:
http://www.math.nus.edu.sg/~urops/Projects/RealNumbers.pdf

Math and truth:
http://faculty.juniata.edu/esch/neatstuff/truth.html

The Infamous .999... = 1 :
http://mathforum.org/library/drmath/view/55748.html

And just for the balance, here you can find some historical non-conventional point of view on the Continuum:
http://www.angelfire.com/super/magicrobin/peirce.htm



I hope Integral will add its own list.

Yours,

Doron
 
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  • #40


Originally posted by carla
Hi

In terms of the cosmos, which I think is the right word I need to describe 'what's out there', would it be fair to say that infinity exists? I mean, even if the universe was not infinite and was some sort of expanding phenomena, or was circular, it must be expanding against something or, if circular, surrounded by something. So 'somethingness' just goes on and on and on...maybe changing shape or form or just void...but infinity, in this sense, exists?
It's possible that the universe is infinitely large. As such it's also possible that the universe has an infinite amount of matter in it. But no, the universe is not expanding against anything and its not surrounded by anything.

Pete
 
  • #41
Integral : I never intended to take anyone's word as being true beyond all dispute. I gratefully accept your warning in that light. I come here to learn what I can with the understanding that even conventional science and all of its members, are usually in heated debate over one theory or another. I guess the term 'mad scientist' did not come to usage without any basis. You could probably name more historical figures in science and maths than I could, however, who by their daring and illogic in the face of conventional understanding and knowledge, added to that understanding and knowledge.
 
  • #42
Originally posted by heusdens
In the empirical sense, infinity does not exist.

But what is against the idea that the universe carries onwards in time without a begin or end?

It can't be obviously measured, it can only be infered from:
- causality
- conservation of energy/mass

And a logic argument pro no-begin of time and no-end of time is this:

If the world (all that exists) is said to have had a begin in time, then all it can have begun from is from nothing.

But nothing is not a begin. Nothing is only nothing.

Yes, nothing is only nothing. However nothing is 2, 7 or billions of nothings also. Infinity of nothing´s variants exists because of nothing is uncertain. Some variants contradicts each other, some create sequences which are logically O.K. I think that all our world is only given by relations between variants of nothing. I agree with your idea of infinite time, but I see another reason for this - we can infinitely zoom the nothing and we will only see different variants of nothing.
 
  • #43
Game, set, match.
Paden Roder
 
  • #44
Originally posted by quantum
The concept of infinity must exist in some form, even if not yet discovered. I personally believe that the universe is infinite, and in that case infinity exists in a very obvious form, but when we suppose that the universe is finite it is significantly more difficult to spot latent infinities... Possibly somewhere in string theory or something related there may lie infinities...
That statement is actually the problem, 'thinking' that "infinite" is (somehow) a concept, it isn't, it is unconceivable.

Otherwise, please explain to me how you can 'think' of anything that is "boundless", it simple doesn't work, cause infinity is an "ideal" that we cannot substantiate, nor prove as unsubstantial.
(Not to go off the off topic)
 
  • #45
Originally posted by Doron Shadmi
Hi Carla,

I think that the closest thing is the relation between theory and experiment
in applied science, and consistent axiomatic systems in pure science.

They are all related in some deep connections between our internal and external sides.

In both applied and pure methods there is the seek after some elegant simplicity, that on one hand can help us to survive as complex systems, and on the other hand can give us the reasons to be a part of its wonders.

One of the most beautiful things in science is its language: Mathematics.

This is the most powerful tool that was developed by the evolution process.

But this tool, without open heart and mind to ourselves as participators in this world, is the most deadly tool.

Yours,

Doron
To create exact model of object and to create object itself is an equivalent. The mathematics has very few opportunities of success in this process. At all its importance, mathematics is an applied science. In my opinion, all attempts to describe the universe by formulas are useless expenditure of time (by the way time has no any mathematical definition). To predict behavior of complex system intuitively or to calculate under some invented formulas. What is more effective?
 
  • #46
Hi Michael F. Dmitriyev ,

As I understand it, any model of X is never X itself, so in my opinion, this "gap" between the model of X and X, is going to stay forever.

Mathematics is first of all a kind of language, and any language has this beautiful ability to connect between unique self awared systems.

Like any lanugage, we cannot know exactly how mathematics is going
to be developed in the next years, because there are a lot of insights
that are coming from a lot of different close an far areas, that can change this language deeply.

For example look at my website:

http://www.geocities.com/complementarytheory/CATpage.html

where you can find a non-standard point of view on the discreteness and the continuum concepts in the Mathematics language.
 
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  • #47
Originally posted by Doron Shadmi
Hi Michael F. Dmitriyev ,

As I understand it, any model of X is never X itself, so in my opinion, this "gap" between the model of X and X, is going to stay forever.

Hi Doron Shadmi.
You are right in part. Your statement is fair for X, created by the nature. Here we try to create model of existing object. For objects created by the person, a “gap” between X and the model of X is absent. The sequence of actions in this case is inverse. First we create the model of object, and then we reproduce this model as object.
 
  • #48
One only existing infinity is the infinity of information.
 

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