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Phrak
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Does the inertia of either a Bose-Einstein or Fermi-Dirac condensate increase linearly with the number of particles?
ZapperZ said:I still don't know how you propose that one measure inertia of anything. Momentum? Sure. Mass? I've seen those. But "inertia"?
So you're asking not only a measurement of a quality that I haven't seen done, but a measurement of that quality on an exotic substance! Forget BE condensate. Can you show what is the measurement of "inertial" on a tennis ball?
Zz.
Phrak said:Interesting isn't it? Are you an experimental physicist? If so, how could one possibly measure the resistance to an applied force on a bunch of coherent atoms numbering something like 10,000 or so? If you publish, you owe me.
Phrak said:inflector, I'm not sure I understand you, however, I am proposing something a little different, I think. I suggest the gravitational mass of 10^n atoms of a tennis ball in a coherent state masses n times the mass of a tennis ball in noncoherence. This would be a really big difference for a tennis ball.
Pythagorean said:
Phrak said:inflector, I'm not sure I understand you, however, I am proposing something a little different, I think. I suggest the gravitational mass of 10^n atoms of a tennis ball in a coherent state masses n times the mass of a tennis ball in noncoherence. This would be a really big difference for a tennis ball.
inflector said:Well, that's the opposite direction I was thinking. I was thinking there might perhaps be some tiny drop in mass in a manner similar to the mass decrease for elements up to Fe/Ni. Since physics has one example where combining particles results in reduced mass, I thought it might be possible that matter in a BCE might display a similar reduction in mass.
ZapperZ said:But such mass decrease or increase is due to the binding energy. There are no such thing in a BE condensate, especially when it involves neutral bosons.
Zz.
inflector said:I should have been more clear. I know that the mass increase is due to the binding energy in the case of nucleons in the atom's nucleus.
And if, as you say, "there are no such thing in a BE condensate," then this implies that the measurement of inertial mass was performed by someone.
ZapperZ said:No I'm not, because this paper belongs in the same class as the Podkletnov effect!
Zz.
ZapperZ said:You made way too big of an assumption. What I said was that in a BE condensation, there are no binding energy. The conglomeration is due purely to quantum statistics, not some physical attraction.
Zz.
Pythagorean said:I was asking inflector. So this paper is pretty much BS?
inflector said:ZapperZ is in a much better position to judge that paper. It seems handwavy to me but I'm in no position to judge it on the merits.
I certainly wasn't talking about any effect known, postulated, or otherwise and I am sorry if I implied that I did.
I don't personally think there would be an actual change in mass. I consider this unlikely. So I don't think there would be any effect to measure.
I just think it would be an interesting test to run and then see. In the unlikely event that someone did find something, it would represent new physics and might even earn the experimenters a trip to Sweden. That's why I deemed it an interesting question.
Part of the impetus to the advance of science is when people run experiments and then notice what they didn't expect. So most of the time, you just have boring confirmations of existing theory. But in order to find the unexpected, you need to be confirming the expected on a regular basis.
Making a new type of measurement is more interesting than repeating measurements that have already been done, IMHO, because you are much more likely to find something unexpected when you measure something for the first time.
ZapperZ said:Maybe because one doesn't actually measure inertia?
Zz.
inflector said:Well, that's the opposite direction I was thinking. I was thinking there might perhaps be some tiny drop in mass in a manner similar to the mass decrease for elements up to Fe/Ni. Since physics has one example where combining particles results in reduced mass, I thought it might be possible that matter in a BCE might display a similar reduction in mass.
Since we don't have a non-empirical binding energy formula that can accurately predict nuclear binding energy, there is still much to be learned about the nucleus. If a similar effect were present in BCEs, that might point to new possibilities for theorists to mull over and we might get a less empirical and more accurate theory for nuclear binding energy.
So, despite the difficulties involved in making any such measurement, I still think it would be an interesting experiment.
A Bose-Einstein condensate (BEC) and a Fermi-Dirac condensate (FDC) are two types of quantum states of matter that occur at extremely low temperatures. In a BEC, a large number of bosons (particles with integer spin) occupy the same quantum state, leading to a coherent state of matter. In an FDC, a large number of fermions (particles with half-integer spin) occupy the lowest energy state, resulting in a degenerate state of matter.
The inertia of a BEC or FDC is significantly different from that of a regular gas or liquid. In a BEC, all particles are in the same quantum state, and their movement is coordinated, resulting in a very low inertia. In an FDC, the particles are in a degenerate state, and their movement is restricted, leading to a high inertia compared to a regular gas or liquid.
Yes, the inertia of a BEC or FDC can be manipulated and controlled through external forces such as magnetic fields or lasers. These external forces can be used to change the energy levels of the particles and alter their movement, ultimately affecting the inertia of the condensate.
Studying the inertia of BECs and FDCs has many practical applications in fields such as quantum computing, superfluidity, and precision measurement. Understanding and controlling the inertia of these condensates can also lead to advancements in technologies such as sensors and gyroscopes.
Yes, the unique properties of BECs and FDCs make them ideal systems for testing fundamental physics theories. For example, the low inertia and high coherence of a BEC can be used to study phenomena such as superfluidity and quantum entanglement, providing valuable insights into the behavior of matter at the quantum level.