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hutchphd
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What does "directly" mean?
This is not a new thought and does not seem to be the way things work.
This is not a new thought and does not seem to be the way things work.
That's ok as long as all participants of this thread are aware that the word "particle`" doesn't imply that it's like other particles that have mass and that have a properly defined position and extent. Between being produced and being detected, the photon is no way like a little bullet (or even a big one). The photon is a quantum of energy or momentum.PeterDonis said:Sure: the fact that whenever you detect sufficiently faint light, you detect it as discrete particles
That is not feasible.neobaud said:I am wondering why not transfer the energy/momentum between the two particles directly?
Good to see that the comment #40 closes the loop with the comment #2Dale said:That is not feasible.
One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?
It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
Thanks Dale. This is the one response that actually addresses my question.Dale said:That is not feasible.
One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?
It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
The meaning of the word "particle" in the relativistic + quantum realm is pretty subtle indeed. If you insist on an intuitive picture of a photon you are almost always better off to think in terms of an electromagnetic wave. Only when it's detected the specific nature of this single-quantum Fock state becomes important, i.e., it can be either detected at the position of the detector as a whole, or it isn't detected at all.sophiecentaur said:That's ok as long as all participants of this thread are aware that the word "particle`" doesn't imply that it's like other particles that have mass and that have a properly defined position and extent. Between being produced and being detected, the photon is no way like a little bullet (or even a big one). The photon is a quantum of energy or momentum.
It's the worst idea to impose wrong/outdated ideas in the very beginning of teaching a new subject. What's learnt first about a subject will be rembered best, and if you best remember a misconception, it's not a good thing. To get rid of such misconceptions is very difficult. There are some narratives, which should be completely avoided. In introductory QM it's "wave-particle duality" and the "Bohr-Sommerfeld model of atoms". If you want to start in a historical way, then the story should start with Born, Jordan, Schrödinger, and Dirac in 1925.sophiecentaur said:The "wave / particle duality" idea is often dismissed, in a superior way, on PF but it's a very good way into an understanding about what's happening, even if there are better pictures of it. It's a good expression which prepared a newcomer to the fact that things are going to get harder for the student.
This sounds more like the description of a virtual photon. Although, it could also describe spectroscopy.Dale said:That is not feasible.
One particle loses momentum and energy, then some time later a different particle gains momentum and energy. During that intervening time where is the momentum and energy?
It is in the photon. If you get rid of the photon then you get rid of momentum and energy conservation. They change, and then change back. That is not conservation. You simply cannot get rid of photons and keep momentum and energy conservation.
I certainly had not intended it to sound like that.PeroK said:This sounds more like the description of a virtual photon.
What is the source of the photon's energy and momentum.Hill said:It propagates with a final speed, and it transfers energy and momentum.
Whatever emitted the photon.Blurf said:What is the source of the photon's energy and momentum.
Philosophers have been debating that for centuries. As far as I can tell, they don't have a better definition.Vanadium 50 said:What would be a better definition of "exist"?
Doesn't that make this about the right time to close this thread?Dale said:Philosophers have been debating that for centuries. As far as I can tell, they don't have a better definition.
Ya I realize that I didn't do a very good job of framing the question.Vanadium 50 said:This seems to be going pretty far afield.
Photons can be created and the creation describe with well understood questions.
Photons can be absorbed, again with well understood consequences/effects on the environment.
Photons can be counted.
What would be a better definition of "exist"?
I think Dale's answer makes sense for an observer watching the transfer of momentum/energy through the em field. If there was no Photon, they would see energy disappear and then reappear at some later time. This is not allowed.Vanadium 50 said:This seems to be going pretty far afield.
Photons can be created and the creation describe with well understood questions.
Photons can be absorbed, again with well understood consequences/effects on the environment.
Photons can be counted.
What would be a better definition of "exist"?
Yes, it would. See below.neobaud said:I was wondering about the perspective of the photon where this problem with the "energy glitch" would not happen.
No, you cannot say that. It's wrong. The fact that the arc length along a photon's worldline is zero does not mean that "photons don't experience time" or that there are not distinct spacetime events along a photon's worldline or that a photon's worldline is not part of the universe. If the photon did not carry energy and momentum from source to emitter, there would be a "gap" in spacetime between them that would cause local non-conservation, even though the arc length along the photon's worldline is zero.neobaud said:from one point of view you could say that photons, light and other massless particles aren't involved with events in the universe
Isn't spacetime an emergent property of the universe?PeterDonis said:Yes, it would. See below.No, you cannot say that. It's wrong. The fact that the arc length along a photon's worldline is zero does not mean that "photons don't experience time" or that there are not distinct spacetime events along a photon's worldline or that a photon's worldline is not part of the universe. If the photon did not carry energy and momentum from source to emitter, there would be a "gap" in spacetime between them that would cause local non-conservation, even though the arc length along the photon's worldline is zero.
There is no "perspective of the photon". Photons don't even have a position operator.neobaud said:I was wondering about the perspective of the photon
That “point of view” doesn’t exist.neobaud said:Seems from one point of view you could say that photons, light and other massless particles aren't involved with events in the universe
I pay them as little mind as I can.Dale said:Philosophers have been debating that for centuries
Always wise, in my opinion. (Which I realize is itself philosophical, but I don't have to get into a debate about it).Vanadium 50 said:I pay them as little mind as I can.
Does an electron? After all, an electron that is 1000 years old acts identically to one that was just created.neobaud said:that massless particles don't experience time
What does this even mean?neobaud said:Isn't spacetime an emergent property of the universe?
If by this you mean that the concepts of "experienced time" and "internal clocks" are not even well-defined for massless particles, that is correct. I covered this way back in post #3. However, that does not justify the further claims you made.neobaud said:I maintain that massless particles don't experience time. They are incapable of having internal clocks.
I am not. I am simply pointing out, as above, that the correct point that I am not arguing does not justify the further claims you made that I did argue.neobaud said:I don't know why you would argue this point.