Does the uncertainty principle break symmetry?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of symmetry breaking in relation to the uncertainty principle and quantum fluctuations, particularly in the context of a thought experiment involving a pencil balanced on its tip. Participants explore whether quantum fluctuations could cause a classical object to fall, and the implications of such effects in experimental settings.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants suggest that quantum fluctuations could lead to symmetry breaking, referencing quantum phase transitions as a related concept.
  • Others argue that the scenario of a pencil balancing on its tip is not directly comparable to quantum phase transitions and raise concerns about the feasibility of observing such effects in practical experiments.
  • One participant notes that the tip of the pencil, while appearing sharp, is still much wider than the scale at which quantum fluctuations operate, implying that these fluctuations are unlikely to cause the pencil to fall.
  • Another participant posits that quantum fluctuations are not constant over time, suggesting that occasional large fluctuations could cause the pencil to tip over.
  • There is a challenge to provide experimental evidence for significant fluctuations that could lead to such outcomes, questioning the validity of speculative claims without supporting data.
  • A humorous remark is made about the improbability of all atoms in the pencil moving upward simultaneously, highlighting the extreme unlikelihood of such an event occurring.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between quantum fluctuations and symmetry breaking, with no consensus reached on whether quantum effects could realistically cause a classical object like a pencil to fall. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the implications of these fluctuations in experimental contexts.

Contextual Notes

Participants acknowledge limitations in the experimental setup and the challenges of detecting quantum fluctuations in sensitive measurements, but do not resolve these issues.

kahoomann
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The classic physics problem example of symmetry breaking is a pencil sitting directly on its tip (pointed down), but it's possible for the pencil to balance on its tip if we reduce the thermal
fluctuations to zero by cooling it to close zero degree.
Quantum fluctuations require/mean that after some time no matter that it was ‘perfectly’ balanced it is going to fall over. So the question is that would the pencil, a classical object, fall over due to quantum fluctuations in a thought experiment pioneered by Einstein?
 
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If by "HUP" you also includes quantum fluctuation, then of course it can induce some symmetry breaking. Isn't that the whole principle behind quantum phase transition? But this isn't an identical scenario with a pencil sitting on its tip. Besides the realistic problem of setting up the experiment, one should also consider that if the effect is THAT pronounced as to tip over a pencil, then it should also manifest itself in other experiments that are even more sensitive, such as the nanoscale balance that was reported a while back, and all those sub-micron gravitational measurement that came out of the University of Washington. Yet, unless I missed something, they detected no such effects.

Zz.
 
The tip of the pencil - even though appearing very sharp to you - is still orders of magnitude wider than necessary to overcome quantum fluctuations. They are extremely small.
 
peter0302 said:
The tip of the pencil - even though appearing very sharp to you - is still orders of magnitude wider than necessary to overcome quantum fluctuations. They are extremely small.

I don't think the quantum fluctuations are constant in time. Once in a while, there will be a big fluctuation cause the pencil to fall
 
kahoomann said:
I don't think the quantum fluctuations are constant in time. Once in a while, there will be a big fluctuation cause the pencil to fall

Then you need to show experimental evidence of the presence of this "big fluctuation", and why it is not detected in all the other, more sensitive, experiments. Without such evidence, you are making unfounded speculation.

Zz.
 
Yes, and once in awhile all the atoms in the pencil will randomly decide to move upward and the pencil will levitate.

Except for the fact that the odds are one in a number with a whole lot more zeroes than you'll see in the lifetime of the universe.
 

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