B Electron angular momentum, gyroscope?

[Homestar1]

Any spinning item, proton, electron, even planet, has angular momentum that creates force. How can an electron exist in a random orbital cloud around a spinning proton if it has an angular momentum and requires force to alter from any circular orbital plane (like a planet orbiting a star)?

 

[PeterDonis]

Any spinning item, proton, electron, even planet, has angular momentum

Yes.

that creates force.

What force are you talking about?

 

[Homestar1]

Not sure the term, it is the force that you feel when you try to tilt a gyroscope, the resistance to changing the tilt of angular momentum if I'm describing that right.

 

[PeterDonis]

it is the force that you feel when you try to tilt a gyroscope

You mean, it's the force you have to exert to tilt a gyroscope. The gyroscope itself isn't "creating" any force.

 

[PeterDonis]

How can an electron exist in a random orbital cloud around a spinning proton if it has an angular momentum and requires force to alter from any circular orbital plane

An electron is not a classical spinning object. It's a quantum object. In the orbital states in atoms that you refer to, the electron does not have a definite orbital plane or a definite direction of its spin.

 

[Homestar1]

Excellent, that's how to explain it. So to get an electron cloud, would a continual, perhaps random, force need to be exerted on an election's angular momentum?

 

[Homestar1]

An electron is not a classical spinning object. It's a quantum object. In the orbital states in atoms that you refer to, the electron does not have a definite orbital plane or a definite direction of its spin.

Could the lack of defined orbital plane be the result of the measurement used to look for it?

 

[DrChinese]

Could the lack of defined orbital plane be the result of the measurement used to look for it?

Your keyboard has a lot of electrons in atomic orbitals, but they are not being measured. Still their positions and momenta are undefined.

 

[PeterDonis]

So to get an electron cloud, would a continual, perhaps random, force need to be exerted on an election's angular momentum?

No. All you have to do to "get an electron cloud" is put an electron in an atom, the way they naturally occur there.

Also, "exerting force on an electron's angular momentum" makes no sense.

Could the lack of defined orbital plane be the result of the measurement used to look for it?

As has already been remarked, electrons in atoms aren't being measured. The lack of a well-defined "orbital plane" is just a natural property of the quantum states of electrons in atoms.

You labeled this question as "A" level, indicating a graduate level understanding of the subject. Your understanding of QM does not appear to be at that level. You appear to be thinking of electrons in atoms as little particles in particular classical orbits. They're not.

 

[PeterDonis]

Moderator's note: A number of off topic posts have been deleted. Discussions of QM interpretations belong in the interpretations forum, not this one. Please keep discussion in this thread focused on the specific topic raised by the OP.

 

[PeterDonis]

Moderator's note: Thread level changed to "B".

 

[Homestar1]

No. All you have to do to "get an electron cloud" is put an electron in an atom, the way they naturally occur there.

Also, "exerting force on an electron's angular momentum" makes no sense.As has already been remarked, electrons in atoms aren't being measured. The lack of a well-defined "orbital plane" is just a natural property of the quantum states of electrons in atoms.

You labeled this question as "A" level, indicating a graduate level understanding of the subject. Your understanding of QM does not appear to be at that level. You appear to be thinking of electrons in atoms as little particles in particular classical orbits. They're not.

Ah. My PhD is in Medical Science, being brought into learning about QM based on a discovery currently in review. I'm trying to understand how it ties to QM as links can be seen. New to the forum so now I understand that selecting "A" refers to level of question, not level of my training. Which are not necessarily linked if asking questions outside my trained field of study.

 

[PeterDonis]

being brought into learning about QM based on a discovery currently in review

Please be advised that Physics Forums is not for discussion of unpublished research.

Also, if you are engaged in research that involves QM, have you consulted any QM experts at whatever school you got your PhD at?

 

[PeroK]

Any spinning item, proton, electron, even planet, has angular momentum that creates force. How can an electron exist in a random orbital cloud around a spinning proton if it has an angular momentum and requires force to alter from any circular orbital plane (like a planet orbiting a star)?

Some points to note:

Newton's law do not apply to the atom and the electron orbital in particular. Instead we have the Schrodinger equation.

Classical electrodynamics is to some extent compatible with the atom, in that we have a Coulomb potential in the Schrodinger equation.

However, this semi-classical QM with the Schrodinger equation and Coulomb potential cannot fully explain the atom and its absorption and emission spectrum. To do that requires the quantization of the electromagnetic field.

You cannot really begin to understand QM from the perspective of classical physics, forces and Newton's laws of motion.

 

[Homestar1]

I'm reaching out for QM collaborators now and hope to find some shortly. Already have a PhD in mathematics that is agreeing to work with me. This new collaborator commented that the way I'm wording things people may interpret a classical physics perspective, as you did. He's helping me with wording and language to meaningfully explain myself. Started on De Broglie this weekend. I'm working my way through textbooks now, just ordered Faraday's work earlier today. Will add Schrodinger and Coulomb. Thx!