EM Momentum,Hidden Momentum,Centre of Energy Theorem and Lorentz Force

  • #51
TrickyDicky said:
I'm not claiming that there are no difficulties or that everything is clear and solved, but I certainly don't regard as solutions Mansuripur's nonsense about Lorentz force law not being relativistic or non-peer reviewed papers like Franklin's dismissing relativity basic principles like inertia of energy that verge on the crackpotty.
Well, even if you are sure about you being correct, there is No need to call anyone anything, I mean, just because if one is among the "commonly accepted solution/theory" people, he/she does not have any right to call others name.
TrickyDicky said:
To address your point more directly, when the current dies if the charge starts moving, i.e. it accelerates, it must radiate with energy flux S and momentum flux S/c^2 so taking into account this EM field momentum one should be able to conserve total momentum.

I don't think, radiation is going to help, because radiation 'experimentally' comes with back reaction force, it's a whole package with zero net momentum. Therefore you still need to explain, the 'apparent' violation of momentum conservation.
 
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  • #52
vanhees71 said:
Mansuripur's nonsense is repaired in articles in several reviewed papers. What I never unerstood is, how this nonsense could pass the peer-review barrier, which should have prevented it from being published in the first place. It's a shame for PRL! Here are some papers, where the wrong claims are revealed and the apparent paradox clearly solved:

D. J. Griffiths and V. Hnizdo. Mansuripur's paradox. Am. Jour. Phys., 81:570-574, 2013.
http://arxiv.org/abs/1303.0732

A particularly clear exposition can be found here:

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/current.pdf
[/url]
May be someone can repair this 'nonsense' too, the upper setup is with loop carrying current and a stationary charge w.r.t loop, in the lower setup the current dies down and according to Maxwell, the charge starts to move, without any back reaction force.
https://www.physicsforums.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=68924&stc=1&d=1398184742​
So, what is the solution to this 'apparent' violation of conservation of momentum.
 
  • #53
universal_101 said:
Well, even if you are sure about you being correct, there is No need to call anyone anything, I mean, just because if one is among the "commonly accepted solution/theory" people, he/she does not have any right to call others name.
Nothing I said is usually considered name-calling.
universal_101 said:
I don't think, radiation is going to help, because radiation 'experimentally' comes with back reaction force, it's a whole package with zero net momentum. Therefore you still need to explain, the 'apparent' violation of momentum conservation.
That back reaction of the field in the form of EM momentum that opposes the charge's momentum was what you were looking for, no?
 
  • #54
TrickyDicky said:
Nothing I said is usually considered name-calling.

I don't want to lecture but I would like to put across what I feel. It seems you are labeling an author for his/her controversial mistakes, and the term you used is derogatory to say the least, especially when we are talking about scientific people, who are supposed to be wrong automatically if they are not correct. So, considering the highly controversial nature of the problem, I think it is alright for authors to go wrong or be not correct.
TrickyDicky said:
That back reaction of the field in the form of EM momentum that opposes the charge's momentum was what you were looking for, no?
Here it is again, the upper part of the image is the static situation with current, the lower part represents the situation after the current dies down. The question is clear, why are we ending up with net momentum, when current dies down, if we started with net zero momentum and there is No external force involved ? This is a serious problem with classical electrodynamics represented by Maxwell's equations.
attachment.php?attachmentid=68965&stc=1&d=1398246088.jpg
 

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  • #55
Could you point me to a clear statement of the problem? The only thing wrong I can make out in the figures is the assignment of the momentum in non-relativistic (Newtonian) terms. If it comes to "hidden momentum" it is very important to use relativistic expressions everywhere.

Further, it's clear that in both situations there are forces acting on the loop and the byflying charge. It's not a priori clear to me, whether you really can neglect the radiation reaction on the whole sysetm. Then it becomes a pretty complicated problem.
 
  • #56
vanhees71 said:
Could you point me to a clear statement of the problem? The only thing wrong I can make out in the figures is the assignment of the momentum in non-relativistic (Newtonian) terms. If it comes to "hidden momentum" it is very important to use relativistic expressions everywhere.
Further, it's clear that in both situations there are forces acting on the loop and the byflying charge. It's not a priori clear to me, whether you really can neglect the radiation reaction on the whole sysetm. Then it becomes a pretty complicated problem.

Yes, we can neglect the radiation.

Further, seems like you are missing the point, first, ofcourse the hidden momentum in the figure is relativistic in nature, but still it comes under the domain of classical electrodynamics. And yes, we can use relativistic expressions everywhere, but that's not going to change anything.

And here is the overview of the problem again,

There is a current carrying loop and a charge at rest w.r.t each other, now, according to Griffiths, there is an EM momentum(ExB) density around the setup and a relativistic mechanical momentum residing in the current carrying loop. And this make the whole setup stationary and the situation does not violate center of Energy theorem. Do you agree till now?

If yes, then respecting the conservation of momentum, we should also have zero momentum when the current in the loop dies down, but Maxwell's equations predict that only the charge will experience the force (\textbf{F} = q\textbf{E} = -q\frac{∂\textbf{A}}{∂t}), whereas, we don't have anything in Maxwell's Equations that says there will be an equal and opposite force on the loop.

Therefore, we end up with net momentum, in the form of moving charge, which violates conservation of momentum.

I hope this is a clear representation of the problem, I was referring to.

Thanks.
 
  • #57
Nope, there is no violation of momentum. Admittedly it is much simpler to neglect radiation here.
When the current dies there is no hidden momentum or anything relativistic, but anyway...
It is quite easy to see that there is going to be an opposite momentum in the electromagnetic field within the loop(let's consider it a thin solenoid to be more specific).
Think about the electric field due to the charge inside the solenoid where previously was the magnetic field when there was current. To this field it corresponds a momentum density within the solenoid that can be integrated to a momentum that is equal and opposite to the linear momentum of the charge.

Basically where we had net momentum zero with the EM and the hidden momentum, now we just substitute hidden momentum by momentum of the charge, the EM momentum is the same.
 
  • #58
TrickyDicky said:
Basically where we had net momentum zero with the EM and the hidden momentum, now we just substitute hidden momentum by momentum of the charge, the EM momentum is the same.

How can there be EM momentum when there is NO current and therefore NO magnetic field, i.e. \textbf{E}\times \textbf{B} = 0 everywhere, for, \textbf{B} = 0 as current \textbf{I} = 0.
 
  • #59
universal_101 said:
How can there be EM momentum when there is NO current and therefore NO magnetic field, i.e. \textbf{E}\times \textbf{B} = 0 everywhere, for, \textbf{B} = 0 as current \textbf{I} = 0.
If there were no magnetic field initially and no charge, there would be no momentum imparted to the charge, the momentum density is EXB, it is the changing magnetic field that imparts that momentum to the charge.
The vector product refers to 3D location of the fields rather than their temporal sequence.
 
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  • #60
TrickyDicky said:
If there were no magnetic field initially and no charge, there would be no momentum imparted to the charge, the momentum density is EXB, it is the changing magnetic field that imparts that momentum to the charge.
The vector product refers to 3D location of the fields rather than their temporal sequence.


There is magnetic field initially, since there is current initially, the charge starts to move when we let the current die down. It is a simple Setup, I don't know what is so difficult to understand.

That is, a current carrying loop and a charge nearby, we let the current die down and that makes the charge move. It is that simple.
 
  • #61
universal_101 said:
There is magnetic field initially, since there is current initially, the charge starts to move when we let the current die down. It is a simple Setup, I don't know what is so difficult to understand.

That is, a current carrying loop and a charge nearby, we let the current die down and that makes the charge move. It is that simple.

Really, this doesn't have anything to do with relativity anymore, you should take it to classical physics if you don't understand the answer given which is simple too.
 
  • #62
TrickyDicky said:
Really, this doesn't have anything to do with relativity anymore, you should take it to classical physics if you don't understand the answer given which is simple too.

Well, Maxwell's equations and Lorentz Force being Lorentz invariant, and hidden momentum being relativistic, the above problem very well comes under the domain of SR. Even the center of Energy theorem originates from SR.

And I don't see any answer in any of your posts, and anyone who had any theoretical background with classical electrodynamics acknowledges that there is a long lived problem with mechanical conservation laws, and this not only resulted in EM momentum(static fields) but also in hidden momentum(relativistic) because according to SR the EM momentum must also respect the center of Energy theorem.

Now, ignoring a problem is not a solution, that is, pointing me to the classical forum because there aren't enough gammas involved.
 
  • #63
According to some notes I have from 1993 (which I wrote myself, so they are not necessarily authoritative), when the current (assumed to be made up of an overall neutral mixture of charges) is changing around a ring, there is an imbalance of charge carriers as seen from points outside the ring, with the "coming" and "going" sides of the current loop having excesses of charge in either direction, with the sense being determined by the rate of change of the current. This results in an electric dipole as seen by a charge positioned near to the ring, which is presumably the same as the electric field predicted by Maxwell's equations.

If this is correct, then it is clear that this is effectively equivalent to a simple electrostatic field and the back-reaction works in the usual way.
 
  • #64
Jonathan Scott said:
According to some notes I have from 1993 (which I wrote myself, so they are not necessarily authoritative), when the current (assumed to be made up of an overall neutral mixture of charges) is changing around a ring, there is an imbalance of charge carriers as seen from points outside the ring, with the "coming" and "going" sides of the current loop having excesses of charge in either direction, with the sense being determined by the rate of change of the current. This results in an electric dipole as seen by a charge positioned near to the ring, which is presumably the same as the electric field predicted by Maxwell's equations.

If this is correct, then it is clear that this is effectively equivalent to a simple electrostatic field and the back-reaction works in the usual way.

This is an insightful approach, additionally we would not need static EM momentum and therefore no need for hidden momentum either. But we are assuming the current to be ideal(Maxwell's), and in according to Maxwell's equations changing current does not produce any charge densities. So even the small suggeested change would require the Maxwell's equations to be changed.
 
  • #65
universal_101 said:
Yes, we can neglect the radiation.

Further, seems like you are missing the point, first, ofcourse the hidden momentum in the figure is relativistic in nature, but still it comes under the domain of classical electrodynamics. And yes, we can use relativistic expressions everywhere, but that's not going to change anything.

Thanks.

I still don't know exactly which problem you are really discssing, but the use of relativistic expressions for all terms is essential when it comes to "hidden momentum", which is a relativistic effect to begin with. A very illuminating example can be found in Griffiths Electrodynamics textbook 3rd. edition Example 12.12 (p. 520).

Most apparent paradoxes of this kind (like the Trouton Noble experiment) come from the use of non-relativistic expressions for the mechanics part of the problem.
 
  • #66
universal_101 said:
This is an insightful approach, additionally we would not need static EM momentum and therefore no need for hidden momentum either. But we are assuming the current to be ideal(Maxwell's), and in according to Maxwell's equations changing current does not produce any charge densities. So even the small suggeested change would require the Maxwell's equations to be changed.

I don't have the detailed workings which led me to that conclusion, but I remember it was very closely related to another paradox, which involves a current in a straight conductor and a charge moving parallel to the current in the conductor. In the initial frame, the charge bends towards the conductor because of the magnetic field, but if you switch to the frame of the charge it is not immediately obvious why the charge, initially at rest, should accelerate towards the conductor, which is moving in the opposite direction.

If I remember correctly, it turns out (rather counter-intuitively) that when you apply a Lorentz transformation to a segment of the wire, you end up with more charges going one way than the other in a fixed length, essentially because of the change of simultaneity at the ends, so there is now a net charge per unit length, and the charge at rest experiences an electrostatic force.

I must admit it's not immediately obvious to me how something similar applies to the ring case for a changing current but it seems plausible. I had so many old physics notes that I used to pick out "gems" which seemed interesting and store them separately so I could find them easily, but the trouble with that is that in some cases I don't have enough of the background material to understand them now!

At the time I was also studying an alternative way of looking at electromagnetic forces which is mostly in terms of four-vectors, avoiding explicit magnetic fields.
$$
\frac{d}{dt} \left( p^* + q A^* \right ) = q \frac{\partial}{\partial x} (A^* . v )
$$
In this notation, p, x, v and A are four-vectors, and the asterisk denotes switching the sign of the space part. If the time is replaced with the proper time, the right hand side becomes the four-gradient of the potential in the rest frame of the charge, which is an invariant scalar.

This equation is mathematically equivalent to the following more conventional equation for the rate of change of energy and momentum expressed in terms of the usual 3-vectors:
$$
\frac{d}{dt} \left( p_0 - \mathbf{p} \right) = q \mathbf{E}.\mathbf{v} - q \mathbf{E} - q \mathbf{v} \times \mathbf{B}
$$
However, the four-vector form clearly does not involve any cross-product terms and seems more straightforward.
 
  • #67
vanhees71 said:
I still don't know exactly which problem you are really discussing, but the use of relativistic expressions for all terms is essential when it comes to "hidden momentum", which is a relativistic effect to begin with. A very illuminating example can be found in Griffiths Electrodynamics textbook 3rd. edition Example 12.12 (p. 520).

Most apparent paradoxes of this kind (like the Trouton Noble experiment) come from the use of non-relativistic expressions for the mechanics part of the problem.

Defining the hidden momentum is not the problem here, so everything you said is very well known. The point is, introducing/injecting the hidden momentum does not save classical electrodynamics to contradict with the classical mechanical laws. Jonathan Scott recognizes the problem, therefore all the articles/papers written on hidden momentum are invalid, until we get to resolve the basic contradiction. That is, the property of hidden momentum being relativistic or other properties, are not important, if these momentum violates the conservation of momentum theorem.

Remembering that it is the conservation of momentum theorem which lead to the invention of static EM Momentum, which in turn (by another form of the momentum conservation theorem) lead to the invention of hidden momentum. But sadly, introducing momentum after momentum, does not solve the redundancy of the original missing momentum, and it can be easily seen that redundancy can only be solved by introducing a back reaction force.
 
  • #68
I think I now have a qualitative explanation for the charge displacement effect.

According to the exact Lienard-Wiechert potentials, the potential due to a moving charge seen at retarded time is effectively from the location at which the charge would be at the current time if it kept moving in a straight line at constant speed.

For purposes of our ring, with constant non-relativistic charge velocity, a straight line simply means that the effective source of the potential is where the charge would be now. If the charges are evenly distributed around the ring, the potential is then also effectively due to an even distribution of charges around the ring.

However, if the charge is accelerating or decelerating, the extrapolated positions will not be correct, and will reflect an earlier value of the speed. Points on the far side of the ring will be further back in time, so if the flow is decelerating, the charge positions will be further ahead of their true positions on the far side of the ring than on the near side. This causes an apparent net displacement of the charge towards one side of the ring.

The effect is proportional to the rate of change of current, and is also proportional to the difference in distance to the near and far sides of the ring and to the width of the ring, so I think that it works from a dimensional point of view.

I'll leave sorting out the details (and checking the signs against Lenz's Law) as an exercise for the student, mainly because I seem to be too rusty to sort it out myself.
 
  • #69
universal_101 said:
Defining the hidden momentum is not the problem here, so everything you said is very well known. The point is, introducing/injecting the hidden momentum does not save classical electrodynamics to contradict with the classical mechanical laws. Jonathan Scott recognizes the problem, therefore all the articles/papers written on hidden momentum are invalid, until we get to resolve the basic contradiction. That is, the property of hidden momentum being relativistic or other properties, are not important, if these momentum violates the conservation of momentum theorem.

Remembering that it is the conservation of momentum theorem which lead to the invention of static EM Momentum, which in turn (by another form of the momentum conservation theorem) lead to the invention of hidden momentum. But sadly, introducing momentum after momentum, does not solve the redundancy of the original missing momentum, and it can be easily seen that redundancy can only be solved by introducing a back reaction force.

Obviously you don't want to define the problem properly or hint to the posting/source, where this is done. So I cannot analyze this specific example. One thing is, however, very safe to say: There is not contradiction with the conservation law of momentum within special relativity, and electrodynamics is a theory that is consistent special relativity.

Minkowski space is Poincare symmetric, and Poincare symmetry includes spatial translation invariance. The generator of this symmetry is by definition called (canonical) momentum and this is a conserved quantity due to Noeter's theorem. From this it is very clear that the total momentum of any closed system is conserved for the system of electromagnetic fields + charges).
 
  • #70
vanhees71 said:
Obviously you don't want to define the problem properly or hint to the posting/source, where this is done. So I cannot analyze this specific example. One thing is, however, very safe to say: There is not contradiction with the conservation law of momentum within special relativity, and electrodynamics is a theory that is consistent special relativity.

Minkowski space is Poincare symmetric, and Poincare symmetry includes spatial translation invariance. The generator of this symmetry is by definition called (canonical) momentum and this is a conserved quantity due to Noeter's theorem. From this it is very clear that the total momentum of any closed system is conserved for the system of electromagnetic fields + charges).

The problem is the Shockley-James paradox, which can be found in many places on the web.

It's often defined in quite a complicated way to eliminate spurious explanations, but basically it's that if you have a changing current in a ring, causing changing magnetic flux, standard E/M equations show that there is an electric field around the ring which can act on a free charged particle near the ring. However, there is no obvious equation which shows how the particle can act back on the ring to conserve momentum. As we fully expect momentum to be conserved, we want to know the mechanism by which the particle acts back on the ring.

I had not previously looked at the Shockley-James paradox, but back in 1993 I had previously looked at the effect of a changing current in a loop and concluded that the electric field around the ring is effectively due to an apparent charge density imbalance when the current is changing, causing an electric dipole effect. If this is correct, it seems to provide a possible basis for the back-reaction (noting that the retarded potential due to the free particle from the point of view of the rest frame of a charged particle in the ring follows a similar pattern).
 
  • #71
  • #72
vanhees71 said:
This was well sloved by Shockley and James themselves in their famous paper:

W. Jockley and R. P. James. “Try Simplest Cases” Discovery of “Hidden Momentum” Forces on “Magnetic Currents”. Phys. Rev. Lett., 18:876, 1967.
http://dx.doi.org/10.1103/PhysRevLett.18.876

The point is, as usual, to take into account all momenta in a relativistic way, even when the speeds involved are small against c:

http://www.physics.princeton.edu/~mcdonald/examples/mansuripur.pdf

The first of those is behind a paywall and the second appears to be about a different but related case which does not involve changing current.

I'm perfectly happy that there is an explanation, but the question is whether there is an easy way to understand it. I think that the effective charge imbalance does so in a way which I find helpful, and I hope it's correct. This lies in the same area as those who end up talking about a "moving magnetic field" or a "moving electric field", both of which are faulty concepts.
 
  • #73
Using the suggested model of the magnet as a pair of charged disks which are initially counter-rotating and eventually come to a stop discussed in several of the papers, there isn't any reason I can see for there to be an electric dipole field to be generated around the magnet.
 
  • #74
vanhees71 said:
Obviously you don't want to define the problem properly or hint to the posting/source, where this is done. So I cannot analyze this specific example. One thing is, however, very safe to say: There is not contradiction with the conservation law of momentum within special relativity, and electrodynamics is a theory that is consistent special relativity.

Alright, I think it is time to make it 'more' clear, and I would like to walk you through it. Just reply Yes or No, so that I can figure out why we are not on the same page.

1. A current carrying superconducting solenoid, and a charge are lying stationary beside each other, the temperature is slowly increased, and the current starts to die down, resulting in an electric field around the solenoid, which in turn put a force on the charge and the charge acquires momentum. (Yes/No) ?

2. Now since there is No back reaction force on the solenoid(according to Maxwell), people figured, this is a violation of momentum conservation. (Yes/No)?

(This concludes Shockley-James paradox, Feynman paradox etc.)

3. But ofcourse, if anything suggests the violation of momentum conservation is in need of a repair, therefore, we tried to solve the problem with static EM momentum density(a concept borrowed from EM waves). (Yes/No)?

4. So now, the initial setup of the solenoid and the charge, is supposed to contain the net momentum in the form of static EM momentum(ExB density), even when nothing was moving, and it is this net momentum which ended up in the charge once the current is switched off. (Yes/No) ?

5. But people again figured, that something stationary(as the initial setup of current carrying solenoid and a charge) cannot have a net momentum, if the center of Energy is stationary, which resulted in another form of momentum, the hidden momentum. So now, in the initial setup we not only have the static EM momentum but equal and opposite amount of mechanical relativistic hidden momentum(located in the solenoid) (Yes/No) ?

6. Now, the introduction of hidden momentum, made the initial net momentum zero i.e. HM - EM = 0, and there is No conflict with center of Energy theorem. (Yes/No) ?

(This concludes the stand of Griffiths of this situation)

7. But it seems very easy to recognize, that the whole exercise(from point 1 to 6 of this post), is just ended up being redundant. That is, after introducing two kinds of momentum, we are back to square one. That is, the net momentum in initial setup is zero(point 6), which ended up having net momentum in the form of moving charge(point 1 and 2). (Yes/No) ?
vanhees71 said:
Minkowski space is Poincare symmetric, and Poincare symmetry includes spatial translation invariance. The generator of this symmetry is by definition called (canonical) momentum and this is a conserved quantity due to Noether's theorem. From this it is very clear that the total momentum of any closed system is conserved for the system of electromagnetic fields + charges).

Yes, Noether's theorem implies momentum conservation in inertial frames(which also include the closed system of charge and currents) for there being spatial symmetry for the closed system, but that, by far does not mean, there is NO problem with Maxwell's equations. That is, implying that momentum is always conserved does not make the wrong laws(which imply the violation of momentum conservation) correct!
 
  • #75
pervect said:
Using the suggested model of the magnet as a pair of charged disks which are initially counter-rotating and eventually come to a stop discussed in several of the papers, there isn't any reason I can see for there to be an electric dipole field to be generated around the magnet.

The model is equivalent to a current loop, but the disk model is used to ensure symmetry to make it clear that the net mechanical momentum and angular momentum are zero.

When magnetic flux through a current loop changes, an EMF around the loop is generated proportional to the rate of change. This is standard electromagnetism.

My suggestion is that at the microscopic level, this EMF can be seen to be due to the changing current at the far side of the loop effectively lagging behind that at the near side, creating a charge imbalance and hence an electric dipole as seen anywhere near the loop. This has the effect of accelerating a nearby charged particle in a tangential direction.

The effect on the potentials the other way (the effect of the nearby charge on the charges in the loop) is a little tricky but is presumably equal and opposite, so the loop (assuming it is rigid) is pushed in the opposite direction to the charge, by effectively being pulled by the charge on one side and pushed on the other, creating a sideways impulse.

So I expect the overall mechanical momentum to be conserved, without any need for anything hidden (although I don't have a copy of Griffiths, so I'm not sure what the "hidden" stuff is about anyway). The question of how it propagates through the field is separate from this issue.
 
  • #76
Jonathan Scott said:
The model is equivalent to a current loop, but the disk model is used to ensure symmetry to make it clear that the net mechanical momentum and angular momentum are zero.

When magnetic flux through a current loop changes, an EMF around the loop is generated proportional to the rate of change. This is standard electromagnetism.

I think I see at least part of your point. The of E around a loop must be equal to the rate of change of the magnetic flux passing through the loop. If we orient the loop perpendicular to the spin axis then there must be an induced E field in the loop in the lab frame as the magnet decays. (This is what causes the charge to move in the first place).

My mental picture of the electric fields of the spinning charged wheel doesn't allow for the E field in the lab frame, therefore it must be incomplete or wrong :(.
 
  • #77
Jonathan Scott said:
I think I now have a qualitative explanation for the charge displacement effect.

According to the exact Lienard-Wiechert potentials, the potential due to a moving charge seen at retarded time is effectively from the location at which the charge would be at the current time if it kept moving in a straight line at constant speed.

For purposes of our ring, with constant non-relativistic charge velocity, a straight line simply means that the effective source of the potential is where the charge would be now. If the charges are evenly distributed around the ring, the potential is then also effectively due to an even distribution of charges around the ring.

However, if the charge is accelerating or decelerating, the extrapolated positions will not be correct, and will reflect an earlier value of the speed. Points on the far side of the ring will be further back in time, so if the flow is decelerating, the charge positions will be further ahead of their true positions on the far side of the ring than on the near side. This causes an apparent net displacement of the charge towards one side of the ring.

The effect is proportional to the rate of change of current, and is also proportional to the difference in distance to the near and far sides of the ring and to the width of the ring, so I think that it works from a dimensional point of view.

I'll leave sorting out the details (and checking the signs against Lenz's Law) as an exercise for the student, mainly because I seem to be too rusty to sort it out myself.

I don't know how I missed this post, but this is exactly my line of thinking. But this, inevitably changes the classical electrodynamics Laws or atleast render them as incomplete.
 
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  • #78
universal_101 said:
I don't know how I missed this post, but this is exactly my line of thinking. But this, inevitably changes the classical electrodynamics Laws or atleast render them as incompete.
Shouldn't that give you some second thoughts?
 
  • #79
universal_101 said:
I don't know how I missed this post, but this is exactly my line of thinking. But this, inevitably changes the classical electrodynamics Laws or atleast render them as incompete.

My feeling is that terms like "current loop" and "magnetic flux" are macroscopic simplifications of what is happening at a microscopic level, in a somewhat similar way to concepts such as "dielectrics", so sometimes one must look at a more detailed level to understand exactly what is happening.
 
  • #80
clem said:
Shouldn't that give you some second thoughts?

What about, missing something obvious?
 
  • #81
Jonathan Scott said:
My feeling is that terms like "current loop" and "magnetic flux" are macroscopic simplifications of what is happening at a microscopic level, in a somewhat similar way to concepts such as "dielectrics", so sometimes one must look at a more detailed level to understand exactly what is happening.

Well, the problem is not with the understanding of the current example, it is the incompleteness of the Maxwell's equations, implied by the incompatibility of theoretical classical electrodynamics with classical mechanics. That is, it is the Maxwell's Equations which are the source of the problem.
 
  • #82
I'm still not entirely satisfied with my own idea about the Faraday EMF from the changing flux being effectively caused by apparent charge density separation due to the time lag during the change, mainly because it doesn't take into account the reverse effect.

I've Googled Shockley James paradox and I see there is a pair of PDF files with "Theoretical question 1" in the title, one "question" and the other "solution", which between them explain the hidden momentum solution.

I don't fully understand it yet, but it seems to suggest that the momentum of the charge carriers in the loop is modified by the presence of the nearby charge, and that if the current dies down, this momentum is transferred to the loop, giving it an impulse in the opposite direction to the impulse on the charge. If this is a correct interpretation, I'm not at all sure I buy it, in that it implies a non-zero net momentum in the initial system with charge at rest and current flowing round the loop.
 
  • #83
I'm not sure in which sense you come to the conclusion the Maxwell equations are incomplete or inconsistent. As far as phenomena are concerned that are describable in the classical approximation (i.e., neglecting quantum effects) the Maxwell equations are a complete description. The here discussed issues with "hidden momentum" are somewhat misleading, and I don't like this notion at all. There is no "hidden momentum". At the moment I'm writing on a little manuscript about this issue, where I try to avoid this idea of "hidden momentum". What's called "hidden momentum" is nothing else than a correct consideration of all sources of energies and momenta, including mechanical (kinetic), the electromagnetic, and the intrinsic stress of macroscopic bodies as an effective classical description of quantum phenomena (which on a microscopic level are also mostly electromagnetic in origin but go partially beyond the classical approximation, like the permanent magnetism caused by spins and many-body effects like exchange forces).

The apparent problems are from several sources of wrongly applied (mostly non-relativistic) approximations. One of the most simple cases is explained nicely in Griffiths's book on electrodynamics and illuminating in understanding the issue of so-called "hidden momentum" clearly. Unfortunately he expresses this issue in a somewhat oldfashioned way, because he uses the traditional way to present electromagnetism first in a kind of non-relativistic approximation as far as the mechanical part is concerned. This is almost always justified for everyday household currents but not always, and the example for the socalled "hidden momentum" he discusses seems to be pretty mysterious, but if you reformulate it only a bit using the exact relativistic expressions everywhere, all the mystery vanishes and it occurs that no part of the momentum was ever hiding somewhere, except in the sloppy mind of the physicist treating the charge carrier's mechanical momentum in the non-relativistic approximation, forgetting that the neglected terms are precisely the total momentum of the electromagnetic field which is precisely the opposite of the piece neglected in the non-relativistic approximation of the charge carriers' mechanical momentum. So let me reformulate the problem in the strictly relativistic form (although I'm using the non-covariant 3D treatment, which is more intuitive than the manifestly covariant 4D tensor formalism but nevertheless fully exact concerning relativistic effects).

He consideres a rectangular loop at rest carrying a steady current as a model for a magnetic dipole in an additional electrostatic field (which take as homogeneous across the loop) parallel to the vertical segments of the loop. The momenta of the charge carriers that make up the current in the two vertical pieces cancel but the momenta in the upper segment are different, because there is a change in energy due to the electrostatic potential \Phi=-E y. Let N_{<} be the (constant) number of charge carriers in the lower horizontal segment at y=0 and N_{>} the one at the upper segment at y=h. The total mechanical momentum of the charge carriers in the loop thus is (I set c=1 in this posting for simplicity)
\vec{p}_{\text{mech}}=(N_{>} E_{>} v_{>}-N_{<} E_{<} v_{<}) \vec{e}_x.
Now due to the stationary continuity equation \vec{\nabla} \cdot \vec{j}=0 the current is the same everywhere in the loop and thus
I=\frac{N_>}{l} Q v_>=\frac{N_<}{l} Q v_{<}
and thus
N_> v_>=N_< v_<=\frac{I l}{Q}.
Plugging this into the formula for the mechanical momentum
\vec{p}_{\text{mech}}=\frac{I l}{Q} (E_>-E_<) \vec{e}_x=I l E h \vec{e}_x,
because we have
E_>-E_<=(m+Q E h)-m=Q E h.
Now we need to evaluate the total field momentum. The momentum density is given by Poynting's vector, and thus the total momentum by
\vec{p}_{\text{em}}=\int \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x} \vec{E} \times \vec{B}.
In our case, it's most easy to get this, if we could find an expression only involving the electric potential and the current density. We find such an expression by writing
(\vec{E} \times \vec{B})_j=-\epsilon_{jkl} (\partial_k \Phi) B_l = -\epsilon_{jkl} [\partial_k (\Phi B_l)-\Phi \partial_k B_l].
Integrating over the entire space gives 0 for the first term due to Stokes's integral theorem and the vanishing of the magnetic field at infinity and the second piece is
\vec{p}_{\text{em}}=\int \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x} \Phi (\vec{\nabla} \times \vec{B}) = \int \mathrm{d}^3 \vec{x} \Phi \vec{j}.
The contributions from the vertical pieces of the loop cancel obviously. The constributions from the horizontal parts give
\vec{p}_{\text{em}}=-I E l h \vec{e}_x.
As we see, the total momentum is
\vec{p}_{\text{tot}}=\vec{p}_{\text{mech}}+\vec{p}_{\text{em}}=0,
as it must be due to the general theorem that in relativistic(!) physics any closed(!) system with a center of energy at rest must have total 0 momentum. Our closed system consists of the moving particles and the electromagnetic field and fufills the general theorem. An apparent paradox only occurs when one treats the momenta non-relativistically, which is wrong in this case no matter how slow the charge carriers might be when it comes to the balance between the mechanical and field momentum. The example also clearly shows that there is no mysterious "hidden momentum". It's only the wrong assumption we could use the non-relativistic approximation for the momentum of the charge carriers.

It's also very illuminating to think about the current as produced in an ideal-fluid picture. There it turns out that the "hidden momentum" occurs from the fact that the pressure has to be appropriately taken into account of the momentum in the upper and lower segment of the loop. Again, there's nothing mysterious or hidden about any part of the momentum, it's just the proper fully relativistic treatment of all parts of the setup.

There are a lot of similar examples. The historically most famous problem of this kind is the classical model for charged particles. To keep the charged particle stable one has to take into account the mechanical stresses holding the charges in place, because otherwise the like-sign charges would repel each other and the construct would simply blow appart (although even then there is no paradox if one can treat everything fully relativistically). The apparent paradox in this case was that the energy-momentum relation E^2-\vec{p}^2=m^2 for the model for a charged "particle" seemed to be violated, because one took the integral of the electromagnetic field energy and its momentum although for this tensor the equation of continuity doesn't hold and the fields alone do not form a closed system, but one has to take into account the charges and the mechanical stresses of their binding on a body to a static charge distribution. You find a very clear and very general treatment in Jackson, Classical Electrodynamics, 3rd edition, referring to a paper by Julian Schwinger, who wasn't only a master of quantum but also classical electrodynamics.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF01906185

As in relativistic electrodynamics the mass of a particle is an empirical/phenomenological parameter which has to be adapted by tuning other parameters in the theory in the sense of "renormalization". Schwinger clearly shows that this is due to the ambiguity in defining the mechanical stresses needed to stabilize the particle (Poincare stresses) from considerations within electromagnetics alone.
 
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  • #84
vanhees71 said:
I'm not sure in which sense you come to the conclusion the Maxwell equations are incomplete or inconsistent. As far as phenomena are concerned that are describable in the classical approximation (i.e., neglecting quantum effects) the Maxwell equations are a complete description. The here discussed issues with "hidden momentum" are somewhat misleading, and I don't like this notion at all. There is no "hidden momentum". At the moment I'm writing on a little manuscript about this issue, where I try to avoid this idea of "hidden momentum". What's called "hidden momentum" is nothing else than a correct consideration of all sources of energies and momenta, including mechanical (kinetic), the electromagnetic, and the intrinsic stress of macroscopic bodies as an effective classical description of quantum phenomena (which on a microscopic level are also mostly electromagnetic in origin but go partially beyond the classical approximation, like the permanent magnetism caused by spins and many-body effects like exchange forces).

Thanks for a very clear description of the "hidden momentum" concept, which now makes sense to me at least in this static context.
 
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