Ethical Dilemna - Finding Money In Random Places

[GCT]

I just found a ten dollar bill while taking a walk through my suburbia , it's seemed pretty obvious to me that there was no dilemna to be acknolwedged here and that it was perfectly fine to keep the money - am I going to ring the doorbell on every house and ask " is this your 10 bucks " - the answer to that is no.

So here is the question - at what dollar amount would you have sensed the obligation to initiate an investigation before you kept it?

 

[Evo]

Is it in a money bag like a business uses and might have been a theft or a paper bag?

If it's in a plain paper bag, it's mine.

 

[Kurdt]

I found five pounds on the floor of the local shop yesterday. I gave it to the woman on the checkout in case somebody came back for it. I've also given as little as a pound back when I got too much change before. Of course it depends on the situation but in most cases I'd at least try something to find the person who lost it.

 

[rootX]

Recently, there was one similar thread (not the same subject) - about one old lady finding 10K.

It depends on where you found them
- a place where all people are rich (1000 would be mine answer in that case)
- a place where people cannot afford to lose 10 (10$ in that case)
- bad neighborhood (best not to touch the money) (I would never investigate)

 

[Evo]

I found 3 dollars in the change dispenser at an automated check out. I gave it to the clerk overseeing the check out stands, just in case the person realized they forgot their change, that was an undertandible mistake and i wouldn't feel right taking it.

But a paper bag lying in the road with hundreds of thousands of dollars = my lucky day. That's really dumb. I would donate part of it to the local animal shelters though.

GCT, you forgot an option for "none of the above".

 

[russ_watters]

Unless the quantity is huge, it depends on the container. If you literally find a big pile of cash in the street, it may actually be illegal to take it if it fell out of an armored car, even if it isn't in a bag.

 

[russ_watters]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7A15752C1A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

A million dollars blew over Interstate 71 that day. The officials have pleaded with residents to return the money willingly, and the armored truck company has even offered a 10 percent reward. So far, only about $100,000 has come in.

The officials say they will prosecute any thieving motorist they can find.

 

[Evo]

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7A15752C1A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

That's why it would have to be in an unmarked paper bag. Loose cash is different, it could have been in a bank bag, etc...

 

[rootX]

Who carries more than 1000 cash either in plain or marked paper bag?
I think most people use credit cards. I don't own one but I do shopping with my university card + debit card. I never have cash of more than 200.

 

[lisab]

I don't think I would go door-to-door finding the rightful owner of ten dollars, but I couldn't keep it either. At my grocery store there's a food bank collection box - I'd put it in an envelope and put it in the box. Especially now, they need it more than I do.

A hundred dollars? Yeah, I'd probably knock on a few doors, at least.

 

[Evo]

A hundred dollars? Yeah, I'd probably knock on a few doors, at least.

I would just assume that some dishonest person would say that it's theirs. I guess I don't have much faith in people in general.

 

[LowlyPion]

The officials say they will prosecute any thieving motorist they can find.http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...7A15752C1A961948260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=all

Good luck with that. Money blowing in the wind?

What crime is that again?

My guess is they didn't prosecute a single person. It sounds like a scare tactic to hopefully jog some consciences and encourage whatever recovery they could. Whoever spilled it was on the hook.

If it was a really lot of money, I'd turn it in immediately and then reread Steinbeck's The Pearl, before I started second-guessing myself.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Back when I was in high school I found a $10 bill on the floor and turned it into the Dean.

 

[Hurkyl]

Good luck with that. Money blowing in the wind?

What crime is that again?

Wikipedia has something, but the references seem to be broken.

 

[LowlyPion]

Wikipedia has something, but the references seem to be broken.

If a law can't be enforced, it has no practical effect.

The idea that there would be prosecution is pretty absurd under the circumstances of the situation, and it was clearly a hollow threat. Personally I'd be tempted not to turn it in if that was their attitude.

 

[russ_watters]

Good luck with that. Money blowing in the wind?

What crime is that again?

Taking something that isn't yours would be called "theft"...

My guess is they didn't prosecute a single person. It sounds like a scare tactic to hopefully jog some consciences and encourage whatever recovery they could. Whoever spilled it was on the hook.

Definitely not a scare tactic, but it may have been hard to identify anyone. I'll see if i can find links about people prosecuted for this...

 

[LowlyPion]

Taking something that isn't yours would be called "theft"... Definitely not a scare tactic, but it may have been hard to identify anyone. I'll see if i can find links about people prosecuted for this...

Under the law it maybe called theft. But I'd say it is highly improbable, if you didn't incriminate yourself by say bragging you found $350 and had a great night at the bar, telling anyone and everyone, that anything could be proved.

So they have your picture? They have you picking up something? Cash is highly fungible and proving it as theirs and how much it was absent recovery in your possession and your refusal to cooperate, I'd say there's virtually no case.

 

[Proton Soup]

Under the law it maybe called theft. But I'd say it is highly improbable, if you didn't incriminate yourself by say bragging you found $350 and had a great night at the bar, telling anyone and everyone, that anything could be proved.

So they have your picture? They have you picking up something? Cash is highly fungible and proving it as theirs and how much it was absent recovery in your possession and your refusal to cooperate, I'd say there's virtually no case.

since all money is uniquely identifiable, it is a reasonable request to ask that they provide serial numbers.

 

[Hurkyl]

Under the law it maybe called theft. ... I'd say there's virtually no case.

You asked what crime was committed. You got an answer. Talk about whether or not there is a case is irrelevant to whether or not it's a crime.

Angling back to the original topic you seem to be pushing for the "it's okay to commit a crime if you don't get caught" school of ethics... is that intentional?

 

[Mk]

Taking something that isn't yours would be called "theft"...

I believe this reminds me of admiralty law. The captain's word is law. When he goes out in the ocean on his boat, he has a 40 foot floating country. It's his country and he is a dictator. He can throw you in the brig for anything he wants. If I'm floating out there in the ocean on my boat and I find another boat and there's nobody on it, who owns it? Me, now, I'm the captain! It's called salvage rights. I found it, no body else claimed it, end of story, and it's not theft.

Everybody has a right to due process under common law, but this definitely isn't common law since the ownership of what property is not clearly defined.

 

[NeoDevin]

If the bills were sequential, or the serial numbers recorded, then it's possible that they could catch someone using them. If they're non-sequential and the numbers unrecorded, it would be virtually impossible to trace them.

 

[Sorry!]

I believe this reminds me of admiralty law. The captain's word is law. When he goes out in the ocean on his boat, he has a 40 foot floating country. It's his country and he is a dictator. He can throw you in the brig for anything he wants. If I'm floating out there in the ocean on my boat and I find another boat and there's nobody on it, who owns it? Me, now, I'm the captain! It's called salvage rights. I found it, no body else claimed it, end of story, and it's not theft.

Everybody has a right to due process under common law, but this definitely isn't common law since the ownership of what property is not clearly defined.

but say the captain of that ship and all his crew had been blown off the ship by a wave just as u were passing and were swimming back to get on to the boat... and you just hop on their ship cause no ones on it and take off with it. I'm sure that's called theft.

btw i'd still keep the money... not saying its right but does it really matter? the person that lost it should take better care of their money i would expect the same if i had lost money of my own. I'm not going to be mad at anyone except for myself. a wallet or something on the other hand... if it had like ID or important information etc. then i would definitely give that back cause those dumb documents take FOREVER to get all back lol

 

[russ_watters]

I believe this reminds me of admiralty law. The captain's word is law. When he goes out in the ocean on his boat, he has a 40 foot floating country. It's his country and he is a dictator. He can throw you in the brig for anything he wants. If I'm floating out there in the ocean on my boat and I find another boat and there's nobody on it, who owns it? Me, now, I'm the captain! It's called salvage rights. I found it, no body else claimed it, end of story, and it's not theft.

Everybody has a right to due process under common law, but this definitely isn't common law since the ownership of what property is not clearly defined.

That's a clearly defined case: the true owner of the ship can still rightfully claim it - that's in the link that Hurkyl posted.

That applies to the money (and anything else) too. The problem in the case of the money is whether or not the true owner can actually identify it. Note: that's a different question than whether it is illegal to take it.

 

[arildno]

As I see it, property can be juridically lost, in that priorly owned objects become ownerless objects.

If a person cannot make a probable case for the ownership of some item, then his CLAIM that it is his property is nothing more than that, a claim, to be judged alongside others.


If a finder of some object on basis of the type of object may conclude in good faith that the original possessor (whether owner or not) cannot be found, then "finders keepers" is a valid principle.

If I see an old woman losing a 100$ note out of her pocket, then I am necessarily a thief in keeping it for myself.
If I came half an hour later, and stumbled across that note, I would not necessarily be a thief in keeping it for myself.

 

[wildman]

Before taking the bag with thousands of dollars, watch the movie "No Country for Old Men". Might make you think twice.

But seriously, a bag with thousands of dollars would probably be drug money. If it is marked, spending it might land you in real trouble.

 

[arildno]

Since a BAG of money is most likely evidence of some sort of crime, then we have a juridical obligation to inform the police about our find.

 

[binzing]

I put the last two, but that was assuming I was in a big city, if I were to be in a small town such as my own I'd start at $100.

 

[Monique]

I'd inform the police, if no one claims it it would be mine.

I've heard several times of people losing a bag of money, it was there complete savings that they were going to put into the bank or use for a purchase. I consider keeping such a bag without telling the authorities a real crime.

I also heard a case that someone found a bag of money, a huge amount, went to the police, no one claimed the money (probably criminal money), and that person got to keep it, now that's a good find.

 

[GCT]

I found 3 dollars in the change dispenser at an automated check out. I gave it to the clerk overseeing the check out stands, just in case the person realized they forgot their change, that was an undertandible mistake and i wouldn't feel right taking it.

But a paper bag lying in the road with hundreds of thousands of dollars = my lucky day. That's really dumb. I would donate part of it to the local animal shelters though.

GCT, you forgot an option for "none of the above".

You are right , is it possible to add it now?


I found the $ 10 bill on the sidewalk and did not have the ingenuity to plan for a foolproof way to find the owner , anyone is able to claim it as their own ... it's just plain dumb to ask the question from door to door because if you had the moral incentive to find the owner you also have the full obligation to find the rightful owner and this means inevitably doing more research and questioning the validity of anyone who claims the money to be theirs. You just may find that your neighbor is an ***hole.

And thus the question arises , are you creating more trouble by investigating the matter , since you might as well keep it for yourself - regardless of how much is involved - if you do not want to do a full proof investigation. And if you were to give it to the police , how would they really manage it , would they have the capacity to find the rightful owner?

 

[Monique]

And if you were to give it to the police , how would they really manage it , would they have the capacity to find the rightful owner?

They really do not have to do anything, just wait for someone to show up who can say exactly how much was lost, where and when.

 

[mheslep]

If a law can't be enforced, it has no practical effect. ...

Such laws have a decidedly bad effect: they encourage a disrespect for the rule of law.

 

[Chi Meson]

In third grade, I found a 2-dollar bill (the bicentennial edition) in the hallway of my school. A friend was with me at the time. I didn't even think about other options; I took it to the main office.

I found out, months later, that the friend I was with claimed it as his own. He was able to describe what he lost and exactly where and when he lost it. As he showed it off to the rest of the class I knew that he knew that I knew what went on, and that I'd never turn him in because he was my "friend."

Boy, did I learn a lesson that day.

And today, for me, the threshold for trying to return found money is somewhere between 10 and 100 dollars, depending on the situation.

 

[Chi Meson]

You are right , is it possible to add it now?


I found the $ 10 bill on the sidewalk and did not have the ingenuity to plan for a foolproof way to find the owner , anyone is able to claim it as their own ... it's just plain dumb to ask the question from door to door because if you had the moral incentive to find the owner you also have the full obligation to find the rightful owner and this means inevitably doing more research and questioning the validity of anyone who claims the money to be theirs. You just may find that your neighbor is an ***hole.

And thus the question arises , are you creating more trouble by investigating the matter , since you might as well keep it for yourself - regardless of how much is involved - if you do not want to do a full proof investigation. And if you were to give it to the police , how would they really manage it , would they have the capacity to find the rightful owner?

The police would hold on to the money for a while, giving the owner a chance to claim it. And after a period of time has passed, the money would go to you. Depending on the quality of the local police, the finder usually gets it. Sometimes the petty cash of the precinct gets a bump.

 

[neu]

Anyone who has said they would hand in 1000's of $ in a marked bag but keep an unmarked to themself is a closet thief.

This is equivalent to saying I would steal money only if I could be sure I won't get caught. At least actual thieves have no pretense about what they are.

 

[arildno]

Anyone who has said they would hand in 1000's of $ in a marked bag but keep an unmarked one are closet thieves.

This is equivalent to saying I would steal money only if I could be sure I won't get caught. At least actual thieves have no pretense about what they are.

Not at all. It has nothing to do with whether or not you could be "caught".

 

[neu]

Not at all. It has nothing to do with whether or not you could be "caught".

So what is the difference between a marked and unmarked bag if it's not about being caught? The obvious implication of a marked bag is that an organisation will have ways of tracking the money and finding you, where as an individual will not.

You'd be a fool to think that no-one would miss 1000s of $ just because they didn't write their name on the bag

Also, why have you used quotation marks around caught?

 

[mheslep]

So what is the difference between a marked and unmarked bag if it's not about being caught? The obvious implication of a marked bag is that an organisation will have ways of tracking the money and finding you, where as an individual will not.

You'd be a fool to think that no-one would miss 1000s of $ just because they didn't write their name on the bag...

The issue is the practicality of return. At some point without more information it becomes impossible to reliably return a non descript sum of cash of small amounts.

 

[arildno]

Re-reading neu, I think he primarily was thinking of LARGE amounts of money, rather than amounts of money in general.

If that is the case, I am in agreement with him, because:
1. Since a bag of lots of money quite probably might be critical evidence in a criminal case, we have a citizen's duty to return the money to the police

2. Even if that were not the case, the probability of an unidentifiable original owner sharply decreases with the amount in question.

 

[LowlyPion]

Ultimately I think it all revolves around the ethics of the situation for the individual as the OP asks, and where the individual draws the line for the situation, because with such highly liquid objects as cash, the issues of common law or local statute pretty much disappear into the gray fog of enforceability or practicality as far as return or enforcement, and rest more with the issues of personal ethics.

Not surprisingly it seems that people are tending to draw the line short of exceeding the conceptually related (but different charges of) petty larceny and grand larceny, that loosely depending on jurisdiction, maybe taken as $500. (Petty larceny tending to be a misdemeanor as opposed to grand larceny a felony.)

 

[Evo]

I've got one for you, and this actually happened.

A woman bought an old rundown house. She hired a contractor to restore the house. The contractor found a metal box containing $182,000.00 dollars when he was renovating. The people that sold the house found out about the money, that must have been put there by a deceased relative that originally owned the house, and they tried to claim the money.

The woman bought the house legally, and there were no stipulations in the sale that anything found in the house would not belong to her, so the sellers had no legal claim.

The woman legally owned the house and everything in it, the contractor found it, the sellers said "oh wow, our ancestor must have put that money there".

Everyone claimed ownership, the homeowner, the contractor, and the sellers. How was this resolved in court?

 

[Proton Soup]

well, the contractor has no valid claim.

 

[neu]

RE Evo's example.

If it was obviously left by a relative of the previous owner, i.e. had some form of ID or money could be dated to period relative lived in the house, then the current owner would have to be a bit of a c*** to keep it, even if she has legal ownership.

What happened, is there a link?

 

[Evo]

Here is what happened. To me, the current homeowner would be the owner of the money, she bought the house and everything in it.

The contractor was hired to renovate, he has no claim to anything he "finds" inside that person's house.

The family of the original owner that sold the house sold it as is. They had no idea that there was money, and the money wasn't left to anyone in a will (otherwise they'd have been looking for it). I guess this would be equivalent to someone selling a locked trunk at a garage sale and the purchaser finding rare comic books worth a fortune in it.

Anyway, here's the news story. What do you think?

Cash Hidden in Ohio House Walls Becomes Contractor's Nightmare

A contractor who found $182,000 in Depression-era currency hidden in a bathroom wall has ended up with only a few thousand dollars, but he feels some vindication.

The windfall discovery amounted to little more than grief for contractor Bob Kitts, who couldn't agree on how to split the money with homeowner Amanda Reece.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,449114,00.html

 

[neu]

"If these two individuals had sat down and resolved their disputes and divided the money, the heirs would have had no knowledge of it," said attorney Gid Marcinkevicius, who represents the Dunne estate. "Because they were not able to sit down and divide it in a rational way, they both lost."

I find it funny that the attorney would admit that they shouldn't have told anyone, he's right of course; if they wanted to keep the money.

For some reason I'm on the side of the builder even though I can't see how he has right to any of it. I'm surprised the court gave him a share.

Surely legally it's hers, but morally it belongs to the closest relatives of the Dune fella.

Maybe I'm deluded, but I'd feel a little guilty spending $14000 of the money on a trip to Hawaii

 

[Proton Soup]

wow, that's not a contractor i'd want to hire. he'd probably get more business if he moved.

 

[TVP45]

It seems the most important issue would not be whether you could reasonably find the owner (scattered money rule) or whether you could get away with it, but rather what amount of money is your private, personal sense of honesty worth?

 

[JasonRox]

If I found a money bag with a large sum of money in a pretty quiet/remote area, I would keep it for sure.

Call me a thief. I don't care. I have a bag full of money.

 

[Monique]

If I found a money bag with a large sum of money in a pretty quiet/remote area, I would keep it for sure.

Call me a thief. I don't care. I have a bag full of money.

And if you found a credit card you'd also spend all the money? I wonder how you can live with yourself if you steal from another person like that. How about when you find a diamond ring, you'd also keep it?

 

[Dadface]

I lost ten dollars the other day and apparently it blew over the pond to a place called my suburbia.If anyone finds it will you please blow it back.

 

[etania]

BRAVO, Dadface :) a nice joke and a good answer for the so called "dilemma".

Actually, I do not see any dilemma here. To take or not to take? :) It's INDIVIDUAL. No statistics (if the statistics is the purpose of the "poll") can be done, because then you should ask a hundred of further questions - what your annual income is, how often you "find" money on the road, how many kids you have got to feed, how you are going to spend the picked-up $10/100/million etc.
So.. I do not see the point of the question. If the author is teased with remorses, then - take it easy :) forget :)
for me it would be more interesting to do a research on people's behaviour when they unexpectedly get a large sum (from a legal source). But then the question arises - what the large sum is...