Evolution of the human brain

  1. Lawrence Krauss says that
    We evolved as human beings a few million years ago on the Savanna in Africa and we evolved to escape tigers, or lions, or predators. You know, how to throw a rock or a spear or how to find a cave and we didn't evolve to understand quantum mechanics.
    How correct is the statement

    I feel that that evolution is a continuous process and brain evolves to understand the threats faced
    Please give your opinions
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 22, 2013
  2. jcsd
  3. Simon Bridge

    Simon Bridge 15,474
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    ... where? citation please: context is everything.

    It's pretty good, up to a point ... QM is very recent and there is no record of noticeable changes to human biology in response.

    OTOH: we did evolve to understand the World around us, and to improve that understanding.
    Our understanding of QM is one result of that process. It's just not a major contributing factor to our speciation.

    ...we also have to be careful about the word "purpose" when we are talking about adaptations.

    I suspect he's speaking off the cuff, and just wants to give an idea as to why QM is so counter-intuitive. Its just not the sort of thing that would be life-or-death back when our brain structure was being laid down.

    Depends what you are calling "continuous". It takes a while to get the hang of how evolution happens. Have a look at the role prions play in biodiversity for eg.

    That's just asking for trouble! Instead, ask for the science, and pointers to finding out more.
    Certainly you don't want empty opinions.
  4. What he means is we don't live at the quantum level so we have no direct experience of it and so it seems weird. The same is true of things on a cosmological scale. The very very large and the very very small are just not in direct human experience and so our "intuition" and "common sense" often fail completely at those scales.
  5. bhobba

    bhobba 5,693
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    Don't know about you, but I have zero idea how to do any of those things, well maybe throw a rock, but that's pretty trivial, and I certainly understand QM a LOT better than a zero idea.

    The human brain is a pretty versatile thing - its just, as seems quite obvious, as civilization grows we require different skills to be successful. Civilization developed from the exercise of that 'brain power', its hardly surprising the very thing that set us on that path should now take on a greater significance.

    Regarding our understanding of QM, it's not quite as mysterious as it once was:

    It looks like even that succumbed to our relentless probing.

    I am pretty sure he was simply alluding to the obvious - our hunter gather background has not equipped us to understand QM - but neither has it equipped us to understand stochastic finance, which, interestingly, and merely as an aside, has mathematical parallels.

    Its just the human condition - nothing really earth shattering about it.

    Last edited: Nov 29, 2013
  6. Simon Bridge

    Simon Bridge 15,474
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    ... "un-intended"?
    I would have thought that every result is "un-intended", otherwise certain persons may infer that you mean there is a designer (or Designer) who is doing the intending. It's probably useful to avoid the looser terminology around evolution and adaptations - and a good exercise: can you rephrase the idea without implying an intelligent agency?

    People confused on this issue may benifit from this TED-Ed animation ... though it still manages to continue the impression that evolution is a linear step-by-step process.
  7. Pythagorean

    Pythagorean 4,483
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    I think the basic point of the OP quote is just that determinism and continuity (concepts of classical physics) are extremely intuitive to humans, and have (arguably) been selected for as part of motion prediction and spatial navigation. There probably aren't many predator or prey that behave like quantum particles.
  8. Simon Bridge

    Simon Bridge 15,474
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    @arunshankar: time for feedback - any of this any use to you?
  9. In biological terms, the brain is mostly the result of sexual selection of optimal foraging. Different brains in different organisms can be measured much like an intel processor, in terms of Mhz. However we need to go in deeper and ask why behaviour at all.

    "Evolutionary Psychology" and "Ethology" deal with this.

    This can be demonstrated through mapping neural correlates of consciousness in humans and understanding animal behaviour (Humans are animals). Basically gene/brain/action correlates. Then trying to understand the environmental influences on the phenotype.

    It is especially useful for understanding how humans cope with shaping their environment so quickly. For example, many of us have fears of things which don't even exist in our environment, but maybe in others. Snakes, spiders, reptiles, etc. Yet statistically the things which kill us the most in the developed world (overdoses, car crashes) are things we seem to have no natural inhibition against. There is an evolutionary explanation for this, however something else is happening. Namely behavior is a phenotype from an expressed genotype. This means our ability to catch a ball in our hand, all of that coordination has basically been trial and error throughout its evolutionary history via natural selection. So our brains are very much adapted for survival in the environment it is found in. However given we can shape our environment so quickly, we are now faced with new environments where our brains are less adapted. This can include comprehending new frontiers (the mental environment of say quantum mechanic theory) which our brains are not suited for, however oddly enough, the theory of evolution is saying nothing is stopping selection from modifying brains to be better at QM, if it confers a fitness advantage. I.e - People who understand QM can only reproduce. Those who are fitter reproduce more. Incremental changes over long periods of time.
  10. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Please post the peer reviewed research on all of this, you know the rules.
  11. This guy, Kraus, is not a biologist. He's a theoretical physicist and cosmologist, and it seems he's a pal of Richard Dawkins, and on the same bandwagon as Dawkins to squelch mystical thinking. That's fine, but it can lead to generating a lot of edgy, meme-ful quotes that are probably more controversial than enlightning:

  12. Brain evolution through sexual selection and optimal foraging in Life History are not just peer-review, they are textbook concept learned in Evolution 101. Very simple basic stuff.

    Evolutionary psychology and the brain, Bradley Duchaine author, Leda Cosmides, John Tooby in Current Opinion in Neurobiology.

    Information and its use by animals in evolutionary ecology Sasha Dall in Trends in Eco & Evo.

    The handbook of evolutionary psychology by Kaplan covers it in Life History Theory and Evolutionary Psychology (50+ citations).

    However if u are new to biology and asking what all this stuff is the best way to learn this stuff is to try 1st year biology textbooks on Life History.
  13. I believe the OP must be referring to this video I found:

    Having watched it, I think Kraus is wrong to say we didn't evolve to understand QM, due to what he says later about us enjoying puzzle solving so much. Clearly there's been selection in favor of puzzle solvers, and QM is just another puzzle. Figuring things out is what we do, and it's not an activity limited to humans. A lot of animals are puzzle solvers, to the best of their ability.
    Last edited by a moderator: Sep 25, 2014
  14. Pythagorean

    Pythagorean 4,483
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    Can you show any evidence to back of the claim that "clearly there's been selection in favor of puzzle solvers" that's specific enough to pertain to something like QM?
  15. Pythagorean - all the peer review papers above I listed contain puzzle solving related material. Zoobyeshoe is right.

    Remember, as kids we can't solve some things adults can. This is because developmentally we haven't grown the parts we need, irrespective of how much environmental influence (teaching) we receive. This means there is an organic bases to problem solving.

    Same with different animals with different brain sizes and complexity. They problem solve differently because of this.

    Selection must happen where there is genetic variation to confer a fitness advantage. Obviously there must be something to brain size/complexity. This is covered also under something called body/brain ratios! :)
  16. Pythagorean

    Pythagorean 4,483
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    You're required to post links to your peer review research in this forum. It's also a common courtesy to quote the paragraph that makes your point.

    I saw you mentioned evolutionary psychology... but evolutionary psychology has experience a lot of criticism from traditional evolutionary fields. There's no method I know of that can verify a claim like "puzzle solving was selected for". And this is one of the main criticisms of evolutionary psychology: in traditional evolutionary literature, molecular evidence is favored, but there is no molecular evidence available for claims made in evolutionary psychology.
    1 person likes this.
  17. That's an argument from incredulity.

    In evolutionary biology lots of lines of evidence, not just molecular, is favoured.

    Evolutionary psychology also apples to other organisms. Ethology has a history of testing things like peck responses and this is MEASURED by fitness, sometimes they use even inclusive fitness models. This include genetic analysis. Since genes produce proteins, there you have a molecular bases.

    Why not actually just have a look at the handbook I quoted. I can't post to full peer-review as that is paid for, but the handbook stuff I mentioned is available and very well referenced.

    BTW - Evolutionary psychology has no more or less criticism than any other field in evolutionary biology. I think maybe you are talking about some problems between Wilson and other Harvard biologists. What they are arguing against is genetic/biological determinism. Of course no one is saying any such thing.

    P.S.S - You aren't going to capture brain evolution in a few quotes. You need a full paper or better yet a manual/textbook that covers it, as per above.
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2013
  18. Pythagorean

    Pythagorean 4,483
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    I'm not making an argument; I'm questioning an assertion that's already been made and asking for a specific argument with citations and quotes rather than a list of literature on a whole subject.

    The argument may be right, I don't know... but I'm not going to believe it under the pretense that it's somewhere in the millions of words you cited as evidence.
  19. I can't provide a peer review paper which says ""clearly there's been selection in favor of puzzle solvers that's specific enough to pertain to something like QM?"

    That's not going to happen. All I can do is show the various linking disciplines (and its only a few things I referenced there) and how they integrate to explain such a massive question like "How did the brain evolve" let alone "How did the brain evolve to do QM". Also we are talking about brains (plural among living things) and also developmental biology (growth).

    I have had to read lots of papers on here from people to understand something like the different interpretations of QM etc. Sometimes its going to take more than just a quote and this is one of them. However if someone can do better than I, then have at it. :)
  20. If you have genetic variation, reproduction and the struggle for survival, evolution MUST occur by definition. However there are models of evolution, like neutral selection, where no adaptive evolution occurs but the genome changes. In the real world, stasis is almost unheard of, although evolution can occur very slowly.
  21. Evo

    Staff: Mentor

    Annihilator, it's a rule that when you make claims that you post the valid scientific sources, I am not asking for me, I am advising you that you must provide them.

    Now, please post acceptable exerpts from these books showing page and paragraph information that specifically backs up what you posted.

    Also, text speak is not allowed on this forum.
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