Explaining internal energy (A level physics)

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of internal energy in different states of matter, particularly focusing on the distinctions between solids, liquids, and gases. Participants explore the implications of potential energy in relation to internal energy, especially during phase transitions and chemical reactions.

Discussion Character

  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation

Main Points Raised

  • One participant expresses confusion about teaching internal energy, noting that for an ideal gas, internal energy is entirely kinetic due to the absence of interatomic forces, while in solids, it includes potential energy due to interatomic forces.
  • Another participant suggests that the concept of negative internal energy is acceptable, referencing atomic theory and the Bohr model, where energy levels are often negative, emphasizing that the reference point for energy levels is arbitrary.
  • A third participant reflects on the removal of potential energy graphs from UK A-level specifications, suggesting this may influence teaching approaches regarding internal energy and latent heat during phase changes.
  • A chemistry professor introduces a framework separating kinetic energy, potential energy, and internal energy, providing definitions and examples, particularly using water's states to illustrate changes in internal energy related to molecular structure.
  • The chemistry professor discusses the calculation of changes in internal energy using the first law of thermodynamics, providing a detailed example involving a chemical reaction and its implications for internal energy changes.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants exhibit a mix of agreement and disagreement, particularly regarding the interpretation of negative internal energy and the definitions of energy types. There is no consensus on the best approach to teaching the concept of internal energy.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the potential influence of curriculum changes on understanding internal energy, as well as the complexity of defining energy types across disciplines (physics vs. chemistry). The discussion highlights the need for clarity in teaching these concepts amidst varying interpretations.

VEReade
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I’m having a mental block re. teaching internal energy. Here’s the issue:

For ideal gas, internal energy is entirely kinetic energy. I explain to students this is because there are no interatomic forces of attraction.

Now, a solid...internal energy is sum of kinetic energy and potential energy. The interatomic forces cause potential energy term.

Here’s the issue, work has to be done on particles going from solid to gaseous state. So particles in solid state have less potential energy than when at infinity. Looks like potential energy term is negative. Looks like internal energy could go negative - that sounds bad..!?
Guidance appreciated!?
 
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The idea of the internal energy being negative is ok. If you look at simple atomic theory, and the Bohr model of the hydrogen atom, all of the computed energy levels are negative. The important parameter here is simply the change in energy that occurs in going from one state to another. What is used as the zero reference energy level is somewhat arbitrary, but in these cases it is the separated particles in a motionless state.
 
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Thanks, that makes sense.

UK A - level physics students used to have to know the potential energy against separation graph. I think it’s been removed from specifications these days - the ones I know anyway. I think this is influencing my thinking as regards teaching internal energy!

As you say, it’s changes in internal energy during , say, phase changes which lead to an understanding of latent heat etc. From a teaching point of view, it is probably best way to approach it...
 
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For academic reasons I find separating energy into three distinctive issues; that is, Kinetic Energy, Potential Energy (or, Positional Energy) and Internal Energy. I must confess that I'm a chemistry professor, not a physics prof, so my distinctions between these energy 'types' is chemistry oriented. Here's my definitions and examples ...
Kinetic Energy is the mechanical energy of motion, Potential energy is mechanical stored energy and Internal energy is the energy content of a system due to its state of existence and chemical structure. That is, state of existence meaning solid, liquid or gas and chemical structure meaning the substances molecular geometry. This is generally a macro molecular interpretation as opposed to a kinetic micro molecular particle level interpretations, but does give a more physical illustration of changes in internal energy.

Consider Water (good old H2O)... It can exist as solid (ice), liquid (water) or gas (steam) but its chemical structure is always bent angular with two covalent bond and two non-bonded pair of electrons around the central element oxygen. To change the structure would be to change the molecule and the internal energy of water that supports this structural configuration.

243409

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1...TiAhXlmq0KHUmSCFAQ7Al6BAgJEA0&biw=1536&bih=722

Typically, for chemical reactions, changes in internal energy is calculated from the 1st Law equation ΔURxn = Heat of Reaction (q) + Work of Rxn (w) = ΔHRxn + Pressure(P)⋅ΔMolar Volume of gasses (V), or simply ΔU = ΔH + P⋅ΔVm.

Heat of Reaction (or, Enthalpy of Rxn) can be calculated using the Hess's Law Equation ΔHRxn = Σn⋅ΔHfo(Products) - Σn⋅ΔHfo(Reactants) which shows a clear differential numerically in energy content.

Work of Reaction depends upon changes in molar volumes of gasses (ΣVm(products) - ΣVm(reactants). If ΔVm > 0 => work is exothermic expansion and is subtracted from the Heat of Reaction; if ΔVm < 0 => work is endothermic compression and is added to the Heat of Reaction and if If ΔVm = 0 => work is isothermic (w = 0) and ΔURxn = ΔHRxn.

Example (Open System, ΔVm ≠ 0)
3H2(g) + N2(g) => 2NH3(g); ΔHRxn = -91.8 Kj
The reaction shows 4Vm(reactants) → 2Vm(products) => decrease in 2Vm net change in molar volume and is a compression reaction. Therefore, work is endothermic (w > 0 ) ~ +5.0 Kj. Therefore, the change in Internal Energy (ΔU) = ΔH + P⋅ΔVm = -91.8Kj + (+5.0Kj) = -86.8Kj (net).
Considering structural differences between reactants and products, one can see a clear difference in structure between H - H and O=O giving a pyramidal structure for gaseous ammonia. That is, the internal energy of ammonia is 91.8Kj less than the internal energy of H2(g) and O2(g).

243410

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1....0.60.534.10...1...1..gws-wiz-img.xzAEwcWMe5g
Clearly different structure than H - H and O = O and thus different internal energy holding the structure in a pyramidal geometry.
 
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