Are Crop Circles Just Elaborate Hoaxes or Something More?

[wolram]

I know that crop circles have been discussed to death but, has all the data
gleaned from the investigations of these anomalies shown that they are hoaxes
ie the node explosions?

 

[arildno]

Yes, node explosions create hoax circles.

 

[wolram]

A "node explosion", is explained by the water in the plant stem boiling, by
some unknown process, which bursts the stem at a node.

 

[PIT2]

Here is some research which talks about an 'electromagnetic point (or spherically shaped) radiation source at a height of 4.1 meters above the ground':

http://archiv.fgk.org/99/Berichte/Hoeven99/index.shtml

The symmetry found for pulvinus length increase in an extensive amount of sampling data from one of the investigated crop circles is remarkable, and seems to lack trivial explanations. Moreover, the pulvinus length increase of 118% is an order of magnitude more compared with results from control studies performed earlier by the BLT team.

The results shown in Graph 5 indicate that the pulvinus length increase in one of the circles corresponds perfectly to the radiation intensity on the ground resulting from an electromagnetic point (or spherically shaped) radiation source at a height of 4.1 meters above the ground. The high correlation coefficients seem to provide physical evidence of the statements made by the eye witness, mentioning the involvement of ‘balls of light’ and ‘heat’.

Consequently, the observations described in this report are in agreement with the hypothesis that pulvinus lengthening in crop circles is a thermo-mechanic effect, induced by heat from a point source with (at least some) electromagnetic properties.

 

[wolram]

Thanks PIT2

A very interesting paper

 

[wolram]

This paper convinces me that a unknown force is at work.

http://www.bltresearch.com/dispersion.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I tend to think that genuine anomalies are found, probably the simple donut shaped impressions that go way, way back, and if in fact strong EM effects were present - in these cases involving the so called exploded nodes - these are probably due to ball lightning, or a close but unrecognized cousin.

As a seat of the pants notion, one thing has always interested me is the idea that a field of wheat or grass at the peak of its pollen cycle, on a dry day or night, might be capable of generating a fairly high static potential. This struck me while watching a dark cloud of smoke, actually grass pollen, wafting around the valley below our place here in Oregon at the peak of the season. With the billions [?] of prickly protrusions, and the pollen to act as a charge carrier, it seems possible that a signficant local potential might be generated. Note that grain dust is famous for static charge generated explosions. Dust can be an excellent charge carrier.

 

[wolram]

Ivan
Do you have more on this? your idea is fascinating, does it explain the variety
of shapes? any more scientific investigations?

 

[Chronos]

So why don't these hyperadvanced, crop hating aliens give us a gem of knowledge in return? Has anyone explained the concept of school chalkboard to these bug eyed, thin lipped morons? And why haven't they imprinted any fancy equations like e =mc^2? Forgive me for saying ... cowpie. It drops on the ground, is smelly and the best thing you can do is walk away from it.

 

[wolram]

So why don't these hyperadvanced, crop hating aliens give us a gem of knowledge in return? Has anyone explained the concept of school chalkboard to these bug eyed, thin lipped morons? And why haven't they imprinted any fancy equations like e =mc^2? Forgive me for saying ... cowpie. It drops on the ground, is smelly and the best thing you can do is walk away from it.

Yes the literature is full of alien rubbish Chronos, but beyond the hoaxes and
nuttery there may be a small percentage of events that justify scientific
investigation, an unknown "earthly", explanation is possible, but robust
scientific evidence seems thin, i thought, "node explosions", worthy of
investigation, as it may tie in with anomalous atmospheric electromagnetic discharge, obviously this would not create intricate patterns, "they must be
hoaxes", but a simple circle or shape could be a natural phenomena.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So why don't these hyperadvanced, crop hating aliens give us a gem of knowledge in return? Has anyone explained the concept of school chalkboard to these bug eyed, thin lipped morons? And why haven't they imprinted any fancy equations like e =mc^2? Forgive me for saying ... cowpie. It drops on the ground, is smelly and the best thing you can do is walk away from it.

So what do you know about the subject? And why do you insist that aliens are involved?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan
Do you have more on this? your idea is fascinating, does it explain the variety
of shapes? any more scientific investigations?

I don't think that we need to explain a variety of shapes; at least not complex shapes. As far back as the 1940s, meteorologists knew about this circle [donut shaped] phenomenon occurring in fields, and they hypothesized that since these impressions were often found near the bases of a hills, vortices that form along the ridge of the hilltops may rotate down as they cross the valley.

With the reports of bright, multicolored lights, and other EM effects allegedly associated with some crop circles, I began to wonder if something like ball lightning might be involved. Then then idea of a static potential forming over a field, something that might provide the potential for some static charge event, ultimately resulted from work that I had done with High Voltage. But I have never seriously explored the idea.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There was a rather convincing woman interviewed on one of AC Clarke's shows. She claimed that as a child she had seen a circle form in the field right in front of her. She reported hearing a buzzing, electric noise, and this was followed by the sudden formation of a circular impression, about ten meters across IIRC, in the field of grass. She said that it formed all at once as if someone had set down a large, invisible plate.

 

[PIT2]

There is a guy in Holland who says he sometimes gets attracted towards a field of crops, walks into it, sees a ball of light and goes unconscious. He then wakes up inside a cropcircle. So far there have appeared around 60 circles in the area place.

Nancy Talbot from BLT research went to investigate and witnessed the forming of a cropcircle by 'tubes of light':

http://www.bltresearch.com/eyewitness1.html

The guy actually also videotaped some of these balls of light from his balcony:

http://www.ufoplaza.nl/~ganzegal/vid/BoLHoeven.RM

The balls don't just appear near crops, they go wherever the guy goes. His family thought he was crazy at first, until his sister one night also saw many balls of light appear which scorched a window. His parents have since then also witnessed the events. The guy also sees a whole range of other paranormal phenomena and as a kid saw 'shadows' flowing down his bedroom walls. He has also taken pictures of a 'grey' materialising in his house. A TV crew that went to investigate also took pictures of this thing. All these pics look fake and 2D though, but who knows.

 

[wolram]

Thanks guys

I have been looking for, "events", in my area, the nearest i could find was in
oxfordshire about 40 miles from me, do you know if "locality", is a factor, ie
loads of circles in one area but none in an adjacent one?
What about soil types? my area is mostly lias clay and AFAIK no reported
circles.
The only unusual event i can find for this area is, a post wind mill was nocked
down and several trees uprooted by a "tornado", many years ago.

 

[Chronos]

For a skeptical perspective:
http://www.csicop.org/hoaxwatch/cropcircles.html
http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?articleID=00038B16-ED5F-1D29-97CA809EC588EEDF
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/england/2310127.stm

 

[PIT2]

There can obviously be more explanations than aliens or humans.
For instance, rainbows arent made by aliens, should we then conclude that they are made by humans?

Here are some balls of light that were captured by a BBC camera crew:
http://www.ufoplaza.nl/~ganzegal/vid/bbcufo.rm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think its important to be clear on what we mean. There are certainly many hoaxes; probably all of the complex designs IMO. I find it very unlikely that any naturally occurring phenomenon could produce any of the complex artwork passed off as crop circles. But, it seems unrealistic to argue that strong wind vortices could not produce circular of donut shaped impressions in a field of grass or wheat. We know that it can. The real question is whether or not EM is or could somehow be present when this happens - as part of some more exotic animal like ball lightning, which might correlate to some crop circle formations. Ball lightning is now considered real by most meteorologists and atmospheric scientists.

 

[zoobyshoe]

I just decided to try this microwave thing out. I cut some long grassy stuff growing outside here and put it in the microwave for about 20 seconds. There was a definite sound of popping. When I took the grass out, though, I couldn't find any exploded nodes, or exploded anything. I suppose some of the seeds may have popped and made the noise.

 

[zoobyshoe]

But, it seems unrealistic to argue that strong wind vortices could not produce circular of donut shaped impressions in a field of grass or wheat. We know that it can.

What has happened to all the old threads? You remember that guy who posted all the eyewitness accounts of people who had seen dust devils and whirlwinds making crop circles? J. Wilson, I think his name was.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This was by far the most active thread.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=7639&highlight=crop

 

[zoobyshoe]

This was by far the most active thread.

https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?t=7639&highlight=crop

That is the thread. Wolram, or anyone who's interested should read the excellent two posts by jwilson. These are posts # 75 and #79, on page 4 by my default pagination.

I found #79 to be the especially interesting one.

 

[wolram]

Ivan ,i really am disappointed, the robust evidence of these phenomena seems to
be sadly laking, hours on google throw up cp after cp, i know all of these
"events" are not hoaxed, but where is the scientific evidence?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Ivan ,i really am disappointed, the robust evidence of these phenomena seems to
be sadly laking, hours on google throw up cp after cp, i know all of these
"events" are not hoaxed, but where is the scientific evidence?

I'm not sure what evidence you mean. Do you mean wrt the radiation claims?

I don't think anyone has ever taken a crop circle back to the lab.

 

[wolram]

zoobyshoe
The massive problem here is overcoming the crackpots input, it should be a
matter of intuition, ie no known "force", can create an "intricate ", pattern, "but",a simple pattern, "could", be a natural phenomena.

 

[zoobyshoe]

zoobyshoe
The massive problem here is overcoming the crackpots input, it should be a
matter of intuition, ie no known "force", can create an "intricate ", pattern, "but",a simple pattern, "could", be a natural phenomena.

Yeah, that's what those posts by jwilson are all about: the simple, natural circles.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

The job of separating the wheat from the chaff is entirely the challenge for most subjects in this forum. And I think this is one of the more unfortunate consequences of the hoaxes and charlatans: Any genuine phenomenon is much more difficult to identify. The job of science - to identify, describe, and quantify new phenomena - is complicated a thousand times over. In fact I think this is a great example. I know for a fact, at least as much as one can in these matters , that crop circles were studied in the 1940s, but the subject is entirely discredited in the minds of most scientists due to the hoaxes. And the real irony is that the first circles hoaxed by the two guys in England were [according to the hoaxers] actually inspired by the real circles found by farmers from time to time.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Any genuine phenomenon is much more difficult to identify. The job of science - to identify, describe, and quantify new phenomena - is complicated a thousand times over.

Crop circles are different in that there's always something there to be studied. The reason, I think, that serious scientists don't bother is that there's no one to pay them to look into it. They don't cause that much money damage over all, and there is no indication that they have any monetary value.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, money is always a factor, but consider ball lightning. Once identified as genuine some years ago, quite a number of serious papers can be found.

for example:
https://www.physicsforums.com/showthread.php?p=416963#post416963

When I first started to learn about the subject of BL back in the mid 70's, about the only scientist on the record that I knew of was the one in Japan who is now viewed somewhat as the founder of the field. But in either case, there won't be any money if no one believes that anything is there. But since I also think that this does tie into ball lightning or some other atmospheric phenomenon - not because of exploded nodes btw - I think crop circles will have their day, as did ball lightning.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Oh yes, there is one objection to the notion that we have the "thing" to study. The circle is a bit like a so called bigfoot foot print. It is what's left over, but not the phenomenon itself.

 

[zoobyshoe]

Oh yes, there is one objection to the notion that we have the "thing" to study. The circle is a bit like a so called bigfoot foot print. It is what's left over, but not the phenomenon itself.

That gives me the idea to start hoaxing bigfootprints with little cropcircle treads in them.