Final pressure and temperature knowing only air mass outflow

• Anachronist
In summary, the author is trying to refine a numerical simulation to get away from isothermal assumption, to account for isentropic temperature and pressure changes in pressure tank with an orifice. Taking temperature into account resulted in a more conservative estimate of water rocket performance.
Anachronist
Gold Member
This seems simple, but I have some confusion. I'm trying to refine a numerical simulation to get away from my isothermal assumption, to account instead for isentropic temperature and pressure changes in pressure tank with an orifice.

Given an insulating air tank of volume ##V##, containing air at absolute pressure ##P_0## (Pascals) and temperature ##T_0## (degrees K), a mass of air ##\Delta m## (kg) is allowed to escape rapidly into the atmosphere at ambient pressure ##P_a## over a short interval ##\Delta t## (seconds). What is the tank's internal pressure and temperature ##P_1## and ##T_1## at the end of the interval?

Whether the air flow is choked or unchoked, or the orifice geometry, shouldn't matter; this is accounted for by the fact that we already know the mass flow rate.

I have this so far:

The initial density of air would be ##\rho_0 = \frac{P_0}{R T_0}##

The initial mass of air would be ##m_0 = \rho_0 V##

So after the change in mass, the new air density would be ##\rho_1 = \frac{m_0 - \Delta m}{V}##

...and that's kinda where I get stuck, getting a final temperature and pressure from there. The adiabatic relationship
$$\frac{T_1}{T_0} = \left( \frac{P_1}{P_0} \right)^{1-\frac{1}{\gamma}}$$
would need to be used, but I need to know if there's a relationship that connects density ratios to pressure ratios? I suspect it's something like this (I can't find a source yet):
$$\gamma \frac{\Delta \rho}{\rho} = \frac{\Delta P}{P}$$

Is there enough information to solve this problem?

Last edited:
I might have found what I need. From http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/compression-expansion-gases-d_605.html equation 2:
$$\frac{P}{\rho^\gamma} = \text{constant}$$
So
$$\frac{P_1}{\rho_1^\gamma} = \frac{P_0}{\rho_0^\gamma}$$
that is:
$$P_1 = P_0 \left(\frac{\rho_1}{\rho_0}\right)^\gamma$$
Once I have ##P_1## I can calculate ##T_1## from the adiabatic expansion formula.
Does that solution make sense? Am I missing anything?

It looks to me like your approach is correct. You should be able to get the answer from your development in the first post. Let P1 be an unknown. Then you know T1 in terms of P1. Then you can use the ideal gas low to solve for P1.

Thanks for confirming I was on the right track.

Using the density relationship in my second post to calculate the new pressure at each time step, along with adjusting the speed of sound based on the temperature formula from my first post, resulted in a more conservative (and likely more realistic) estimate of my water rocket's performance than my original constant-temperature calculations.

You and I had a conversation in the past in which we concluded that ##\gamma=1.34## is reasonable to fudge the ideal gas formulas for humid air expanding rapidly to push water out of a bottle. I started this thread as the next stage: what to do with the pressurized air left in the bottle after the water is all gone. The pressure and temperature were nicely modeled during the water thrust phase as a result of that previous thread, but I was never happy with the fact that my air-thrust calculations ignored any further temperature changes. Taking temperature into account, as described above, made a small but significant difference in altitude achieved by the rocket (about 6% less with the new calculations).

Chestermiller

1. What is the relationship between air mass outflow, final pressure, and temperature?

The final pressure and temperature of a system depend on the amount of air mass that is flowing out of the system. As the air mass decreases, the pressure and temperature also decrease due to a decrease in the number of gas molecules present.

2. Can the final pressure and temperature be accurately determined if only the air mass outflow is known?

Yes, it is possible to determine the final pressure and temperature by using the ideal gas law, which relates the pressure, temperature, and volume of a gas. If the volume of the system remains constant, the final pressure and temperature can be calculated using the initial conditions and the amount of air mass that has flowed out of the system.

3. How does the initial temperature and pressure affect the final pressure and temperature with a constant air mass outflow?

The initial temperature and pressure do not have a direct relationship with the final pressure and temperature when there is a constant air mass outflow. However, they can impact the rate at which the air mass decreases, thus affecting the final pressure and temperature.

4. What other factors can affect the final pressure and temperature besides air mass outflow?

The final pressure and temperature can also be influenced by changes in volume, the type of gas present, and any external factors such as heat transfer or work done on the system.

5. What is the significance of knowing the final pressure and temperature with only knowledge of air mass outflow?

Knowing the final pressure and temperature can provide insight into the behavior of gases and how they respond to changes in their environment. It can also be useful in various engineering applications, such as designing and maintaining systems that involve gas flow.

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