Focusing at infinity for a camera and circles of confusion

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of focusing a camera at "infinity," exploring the implications for depth of field (DOF), circles of confusion, and the effects of aperture settings. Participants examine the theoretical and practical aspects of these concepts in photography, including how they relate to lens properties and object distances.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that when a camera is focused at infinity, everything from that point onward is in focus, but the concept of circles of confusion complicates this understanding.
  • Others argue that depth of field extends both closer and beyond the focus setting, with a focus at infinity limiting the effective depth of field to a certain range.
  • A participant questions the definition of "optical infinity" and its practical implications, suggesting it starts at a distance of 20 to 30 times the focal length.
  • There is a discussion about the hyperfocal distance, with some stating that focusing at this distance maximizes depth of field, allowing for acceptable focus from half that distance to infinity.
  • Concerns are raised about how circles of confusion grow as one moves away from the perfect focus plane, questioning how acceptable focus can still be achieved at infinity.
  • Some participants clarify that the size of the circle of confusion remains constant, while the angles of light rays become more acute as the object distance increases.
  • There is a mathematical exploration of how depth of field changes with varying object distances, with some suggesting that absolute depth of field increases with distance.
  • A later reply introduces a comparison between wide-angle and telephoto lenses, suggesting that depth of field remains similar when images are enlarged to the same size, prompting further discussion on the implications of lens choice.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the relationship between focusing at infinity, depth of field, and circles of confusion. There is no consensus on the implications of these concepts, and multiple competing views remain throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants reference specific distances and mathematical relationships without resolving the underlying assumptions or definitions related to depth of field and circles of confusion. The discussion includes varying interpretations of how these concepts apply in practical photography.

Who May Find This Useful

Readers interested in photography, optics, and the technical aspects of camera settings may find this discussion relevant, particularly those exploring depth of field and focusing techniques.

fisico30
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Hello Forum,

when a camera is focused at "infinity", everything from infinity on is in focus (acceptable).

How is that possible? Every plane that is not in perfect focus has a certain circle of confusion that gets larger (more blurring) as we move away from the best focus plane...

Also, what happens to the aperture stop when the camera setting is "infinity"?

thanks
fisico30
 
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Depth of field is both closer and beyond the focus setting, where the main focus is sorta-kinda-handwaving about 1/3 of the distance into the "good" DOF range.

If you focus at infinity you basically throw away the depth beyond infinity and just get the 1/3 distance closer to you "in focus", meaning within your selected circle of confusion. To maximize your depth of field in long shots, the Hyperfocal Distance is what you want. Of course that distance changes with the f-stop as well. He's a website with a bunch of charts and information that may (or not) help: http://dofmaster.com/charts.html

I don't understand what you mean by "what happens to the aperture stop..." so I can't help there...
 
Thanks schip666!

I think I need a little more help but I will get it.

Let's say we have converging lens of focal length f= 1 cm.
An object is placed at distance d_o. The image is located at distance d_i (calculated using the lens equation). The images at all other planes are blurred (circle of confusion for each image point).

The depth of field DOF depends on the distance d_o. I understand what they conceptually are: axial distance over which the circle of confusion size is small enough to make the images acceptable.

Now, "optical infinity" starts where? At roughly 20, 30 times the focal lengths (I hear). So infinity could be 100 cm away. Everything farther than that considered to be at infinity...

What is the DOF if the object is at infinity? Is it small or large?

The hyperfocal length that distance H. If we focus at H, everything from H/2 to infinity will be in (acceptable focus). Perfect focus will be at H. All the other image planes will be slightly blurred.
Focusing at H give twice the DOF than focusing at infinity.

But regardless of where we focus, of where the object is, the circle of confusion size grows as we move away from the perfect focus plane. If we focus at H, how can things that are way far from H, at infinity, still be in acceptable focus? Wouldn't the size of hte circle of confusion be so large at that distance?

thanks
fisico30
 
"Optical infinity" starts at, well, infinity -- think the Andromeda galaxy for instance. But practically it's anything near to that, like those mountains 20 miles away across the valley. Unless you are using a _super_ long lens, then maybe the moon is a good practical limit on infinity.

It's pretty pointless to focus on things that are _beyond_ infinity, so using the Hyperfocal point gives you the best DOF. As I said it's more like 1/3 in front and 2/3 behind (rather than 1/2 each way) -- but you'd have to actually work the equations or charts to get the exact distances.

The "circles-of-confusion" are symmetrical around the image plane. If you do a ray trace of your lens system, with focus at different points you will get "cones" of different angles which intersect the image plane. Some of the cones' apexes will be at the image. Others will be in-front or in-back of the image plane (where they focus). The size of the circle on the image plane is the CC. When that is indistinguishable to our eyes at whatever resolution we want, then we think it's in focus.

I searched ray trace and found this, which may be clearer then me:
http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/scenario/raytrace.htm
Otherwise I can't really explain it without scribbling with pencils on paper...
 
Thank you.

So, the farther the object is, the larger the depth of field, because the CC size gets smaller and smaller as the cones angles get smaller?

thanks
fisico30
 
The CC stays the same size but the angles get more acute, and thus take "longer" to fill the CC. I think that's probably what you meant...
 
Almost.

take a lens with f=+1 vm and an object located at d_0=1000 cm

the perfect focus image plane is at d_0=1/ [1-(1/1000)]=1.001 cm

Any other plane will have an image that is slightly blurred with each point having a CC with nonzero size...

at that specific image plane, other objects that are located at other object distances d_0 will be imaged but they will be blurred, because of the circles of confusion associated to each image point...

Does the depth of field, which depends on d_0, get larger and larger as d_0 get larger?

thanks
fisico30
 
Yes, the absolute DOF distance gets larger as you focus further away, although I would make a small bet that the percentage (depth/distance) is either the same or at least non-linearly related.

For (what may be a good) explanation of the CC thing see figure 5 on this page:
http://www.galerie-photo.com/profondeur-de-champ-scheimpflug-english.html

And for extra credit, can you prove to me that the DOF is "deeper" when using a wide-angle versus a telephoto lens --with the caveat that we enlarge the resulting images such that objects from each shot are the same size? It's a trick question. The DOF is (very close to) identical, as is the perspective. The only thing that changes when you change lenses is the amount of space you capture on the film...
 

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