Four vector component. how to recognize it?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around identifying whether a physical quantity is a component of a four-vector, particularly focusing on the Lorentz contracted and dilated lengths in the context of special relativity. Participants explore the implications of Lorentz transformations and the conditions under which quantities can be classified as four-vectors.

Discussion Character

  • Debate/contested
  • Technical explanation
  • Mathematical reasoning

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question whether the Lorentz contracted length can be considered a component of a four-vector, suggesting that it does not satisfy the transformation properties required for four-vectors.
  • Others propose that the Lorentz dilated length is indeed a component of a four-vector, as it can be derived from measurements that account for simultaneity in the rest frame of the object.
  • One participant provides a mathematical framework for defining four-vectors, emphasizing that they must transform according to the Lorentz transformation, and illustrates this with examples such as energy-momentum and electromagnetic four-potential.
  • There is a discussion about the implications of measuring lengths in different frames and how simultaneity affects the classification of these lengths as four-vector components.
  • Some participants introduce equations relating proper lengths and their relativistic counterparts, indicating that the invariance of the relativistic interval is a key consideration in determining whether a quantity is a four-vector component.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on whether the Lorentz contracted length qualifies as a four-vector component, while there is some agreement that the Lorentz dilated length may qualify. The discussion remains unresolved, with multiple competing views presented.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the importance of simultaneity in measurements and the conditions under which different lengths are derived. There are references to specific mathematical formulations and the need for careful consideration of the frames of reference involved.

bernhard.rothenstein
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What is the simplest way to find out if a physical quantity is the component of a four vector? There are opinions that the Lorentz contracted length is not, the Lorentz dilate length being.
 
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bernhard.rothenstein said:
What is the simplest way to find out if a physical quantity is the component of a four vector? There are opinions that the Lorentz contracted length is not, the Lorentz dilate length being.

I add some details.
Consider that observers from I detect simultaneously the space coordinates of the ends of a moving rod, at rest in the I', located along the x' axis. The result is that the proper length of the rod L0 measured in I' and its contracted length L are related by the formula that accounts for the Lorentz contraction. The same formula could be derived without imposing the simultaneous detection of the space coordinates of the two ends.
The space coordinates of the ends measured in the stationary frame do not depend on the time when they are measured. Consider that observers from I' detect simultaneously the space coordinates of the stationary rod, the measurements being associated with the space-time coordinates (x'1,t') and (x'2,t'). Observers from I perform the Lorentz transformations for the space coordinates of the two ends obtaining
L=[tex]\gamma[/tex]L0 (1)
which accounts for the Lorentz expansion (dilation?).
Equation (1) is derived by radar detection of the space coordinates of the moving rod.
Virtues of (1) are mentioned.
Which is the simplest way to show that (1) is the component of a four vector the length contracted length being not?
 
A set of quantites form a 4-vector if they tranform via the Lorentz tranform. Thus if [itex]\textbf{X} = (ct, x, y, z)^T[/itex] and [itex]\textbf{X'} = (ct', x', y', z')^T[/itex] are coordinates for the same event in two different inertial frames (in "standard configuration", i.e. with aligned spatial axes and in relative motion along their common x axis), we can say this is a 4-vector because

[tex]\textbf{X'} = \Lambda \, \textbf{X}[/tex]​

where

[tex]\Lambda = \left[ \begin{array}{cccc}<br /> \gamma & -\gamma v & 0 & 0 \\<br /> -\gamma v & \gamma & 0 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\<br /> \end{array} \right][/tex]​

"Lorentz-contracted length" doesn't satisfy this because the length is measured between two events that are simultaneous in the frame where the measurement is made. When you change frames, you also change events. The Lorentz transform applies only when you measure the same pair of events in two different frames.

Other examples of 4-vectors are

Energy-momentum... [tex]\textbf{P} = (\frac{E}{c}, p_1, p_2, p_3)^T = m\frac{d\textbf{X}}{d\tau}[/tex]
4-force...... [tex]\textbf{F} = \frac{d\textbf{P}}{d\tau}[/tex]
4-current..... [tex]\textbf{J} = (\rho c, j_1, j_2, j_3)^T[/tex]
electromagnetic 4-potential [tex]\Psi = (\phi, a_1 c, a_2 c, a_3 c)^T[/tex]​

(See four-vector[/color] on Wikipedia.)
 
DrGreg said:
A set of quantites form a 4-vector if they tranform via the Lorentz tranform. Thus if [itex]\textbf{X} = (ct, x, y, z)^T[/itex] and [itex]\textbf{X'} = (ct', x', y', z')^T[/itex] are coordinates for the same event in two different inertial frames (in "standard configuration", i.e. with aligned spatial axes and in relative motion along their common x axis), we can say this is a 4-vector because

[tex]\textbf{X'} = \Lambda \, \textbf{X}[/tex]​

where

[tex]\Lambda = \left[ \begin{array}{cccc}<br /> \gamma & -\gamma v & 0 & 0 \\<br /> -\gamma v & \gamma & 0 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 1 & 0 \\<br /> 0 & 0 & 0 & 1 \\<br /> \end{array} \right][/tex]​

"Lorentz-contracted length" doesn't satisfy this because the length is measured between two events that are simultaneous in the frame where the measurement is made. When you change frames, you also change events. The Lorentz transform applies only when you measure the same pair of events in two different frames.

Other examples of 4-vectors are

Energy-momentum... [tex]\textbf{P} = (\frac{E}{c}, p_1, p_2, p_3)^T = m\frac{d\textbf{X}}{d\tau}[/tex]
4-force...... [tex]\textbf{F} = \frac{d\textbf{P}}{d\tau}[/tex]
4-current..... [tex]\textbf{J} = (\rho c, j_1, j_2, j_3)^T[/tex]
electromagnetic 4-potential [tex]\Psi = (\phi, a_1 c, a_2 c, a_3 c)^T[/tex]​

(See four-vector[/color] on Wikipedia.)
Thank you. Please have a look at the following lines.
Consider that in a 2D approach A is the scalar component of a "two vector" and let A0 be its proper (invariant) magnitude related to its relativitic magnitude as
A=[tex]\gamma[/tex](u)A0. (1)
Let A be the vector component of the same "two vector",related to A by
A=[tex]\gamma[/tex](u)A0u (2)
(1) and (2) ensuring the invariance of the relativistic interval.
As we see the Lorentz contracted length is not the component of a four vector
whereas the dilated length L=L0[tex]\gamma[/tex] is.
The dilated length could be obtained simultaneously detecting the ends of the rod in its rest frame. Did Einstein take into account that measurement variant?
Would you accept such an approach?
 

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