General Question- Compuing velocity of a center of mass

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Homework Help Overview

The problem involves calculating the velocity of the center of mass for a system of two balls with given masses and velocities before and after an elastic collision. The original poster expresses uncertainty about how to compute the center of mass for a system, particularly in terms of velocity, as they have only learned to calculate it for individual objects.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the concept of center of mass and its relation to the total momentum of the system. Some suggest that the center of mass can be treated as a single object with a combined mass, while others question how to derive the velocity of the center of mass from the individual velocities of the particles.

Discussion Status

The discussion is ongoing, with various participants exploring different interpretations of the center of mass concept. Some have offered insights into the relationship between momentum and the center of mass, while others are still grappling with the calculations and definitions involved.

Contextual Notes

There is a noted lack of clarity regarding the definition of center of mass in the context of a system, as well as the specific method for calculating its velocity. Participants are reflecting on their previous learning experiences and the challenges of applying those concepts to this problem.

integra2k20
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General Question-- Compuing velocity of a center of mass

Homework Statement



A ball of mass 0.198 kg has a velocity of 1.47 i m/s; a ball of mass 0.309 kg has a velocity of -0.401 i m/s.They meet in a head-on elastic collision.

(a) Find their velocities after the collision.

(b) Find the velocity of their center of mass before and after the collision.


Homework Equations



v1f = ((m1-m2)/(m1+m2))(v1i)+(2(m2)/(m1+m2))(v2i)

(m1)(v1i)+(m2)(v2i)=(m1)(v1f)+(m2)(v2f)

The Attempt at a Solution



a.) Calculated velocities correctly: v1f = -.8106m/s, v2f = 1.0604m/s

b.) This is my problem

As i understand center of mass, it applies to an object as a whole, not a system. I have only been taught how to compute center of mass for an object with specific x and y dimensions, i have no idea how to find the center of mass of a system let alone the VELOCITY of the center of mass as is asked in this question.

my only guess is that since p = m(delta v) and p = m(v center of mass), that maybe the velocity of the center of mass is equal to the change in velocity?
 
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Think about it this way..
Center of mass means you're treating the TOTAL momentum of the system as if it's the momentum of ONE object which composes of both the objects' masses! (Since the total mass of the objects would be concentrated at the center of mass)
I think I said too much..
 
Pseudo Statistic said:
Think about it this way..
Center of mass means you're treating the TOTAL momentum of the system as if it's the momentum of ONE object which composes of both the objects' masses! (Since the total mass of the objects would be concentrated at the center of mass)
I think I said too much..

im still not quite sure how you would obtain the velocity of the center of mass from this. apparently its not as simple as i'd thought...
 
integra2k20 said:
im still not quite sure how you would obtain the velocity of the center of mass from this. apparently its not as simple as i'd thought...

What is the definition of center of mass? If you know how to find it in some cases, you must know its definition.

integra2k20 said:
As i understand center of mass, it applies to an object as a whole, not a system. I have only been taught how to compute center of mass for an object with specific x and y dimensions, i have no idea how to find the center of mass of a system let alone the VELOCITY of the center of mass as is asked in this question.
 
integra2k20 said:
im still not quite sure how you would obtain the velocity of the center of mass from this. apparently its not as simple as i'd thought...

What's the momentum of a single particle whose mass = (m1 + m2), and which moves with speed Vcm? Does this have any relationship to your system, in other words?

Dorothy
 
Dorothy Weglend said:
What's the momentum of a single particle whose mass = (m1 + m2), and which moves with speed Vcm? Does this have any relationship to your system, in other words?

Dorothy

While this is certainly a valid observation, it is sort of using the answer to find the answer. At least once in a lifetime every physics student should have to actually compute the velocity of the CM from the individual velocities of the particles in the system to verify the conclusion to be reached in this exercise.
 
Oh. Sorry :-(

I'm not sure I have ever done that... When I solved this problem, I just took the derivative of the position vector of the CM, and that's what I ended up with, which I thought was interesting... Maybe I should have just suggested that..

Sorry again.
Dorothy
 
Dorothy Weglend said:
Oh. Sorry :-(

I'm not sure I have ever done that... When I solved this problem, I just took the derivative of the position vector of the CM, and that's what I ended up with, which I thought was interesting... Maybe I should have just suggested that..

Sorry again.
Dorothy
No need to be sorry. Your observations are valid.

The derivative is the approach to doing the direct calculation, and it is what I think he problem intended. I thought you were suggesting that since the total mometum has been calculated one only need to divide by the total mass, which is the conclusion the problem is trying to reach. It is a subtle difference.
 
Well, sometimes when I work through these calculations, I end up with a result that I say, "Oh, of course. I should have seen that..." a sort of an "Ah hah" moment, and I think I should have been able to see it without doing the calculation, just from the concepts.

I was trying to create an "Ah Hah!" moment for someone else, having missed it myself :-)

Thanks for all the help you give all of us, btw.

Dorothy
 
  • #10
Dorothy Weglend said:
Well, sometimes when I work through these calculations, I end up with a result that I say, "Oh, of course. I should have seen that..." a sort of an "Ah hah" moment, and I think I should have been able to see it without doing the calculation, just from the concepts.

I was trying to create an "Ah Hah!" moment for someone else, having missed it myself :-)

Thanks for all the help you give all of us, btw.

Dorothy

And that is exactly the point of doing the exercise! :smile: Those moments are memorable and help to drive home the concepts.
 

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