Gravity: push, pull, or does not exist?

[terrabyte]

if you could make a frictionless rubber sheet it would be almost ideal for that demonstration :D

 

[Alkatran]

if you could make a frictionless rubber sheet it would be almost ideal for that demonstration :D

Too bad you need something making the ball want to go lower... so to prove gravity you need... gravity.

 

[Janus]

Too bad you need something making the ball want to go lower... so to prove gravity you need... gravity.

Or acceleration. If you accelerate the rubber sheet normal to its "flat space" surface, the masses will follow the same rules without invoking gravity.

 

[terrabyte]

good point, although i was merely extolling the virtues of this visualization for describing 3D spacetime using a 2D model.

i wasn't planning on actually making one :D

 

[DeShiznit44]

i agree with Armo, Rampant, and Entropy. I've been studying this area of physics for a long time now and when i first saw this thread i didn't immediatly dissmiss the idea. I talked to a lot of physicists who all have varying opinions, granted, the majority of them are not in favor of the theory, but then, who was in favor of the sun being the center of our solar system hundreds of years ago?
So i did my own research as well and based on many, many opinions and a lot of research neutrinos cannot be the source of gravity. Urtalkinstupid, u said that u talked to a physicist and he said that the neutrino can provide the push force, how?!
Armo put it very clearly, neutrinos are not really effected by any of the fundamental forces. If u still want to beat this amazingly dead horse then fine, just explain to me how a neutrino can give a push force if an AMAZINGLY miniscule amount are ever effected when they pass through the earth? They should push the earth. Now u might say that the neutrino "field" aroud the Earth is constant. The distribution of neutrinos hitting our planet is not constant at any given time. We should be able to notice a change in the orbit of our Earth if the neutrinos are capable of providing a push force.
The fact is there are a lot more viable and better theories about gravity out there. Neutrinos DO NOT cause gravity. That's that.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

Urtalkinstupid, Alkatran, and who ever else believes this theory...i really think you should give this up... me, DeShiznit, and Rampant have been studying patricle physics and cosmic rays for a while now, especially Deshiznit and I. We have been going to the physics department at UMCP this whole week and have done a lot of research because of a project we are working on. The physics department at UMCP is one of the biggest and most advanced in the country. From the physicists we worked and talked with, none of them accepted your theory of gravity. It is simply impossible for neutrinos to affect you in any way, I am not even going to say anything about the fact that gravity accelerates you at 9.81 m/s^2 on earth. I've seen you say that "the speed of light is not constant", and "the universe isn't expanding". Just from hearing you simply say those statements with absolutlly no actualy proof of it being true already tells me that you are in no position to argue about physics that you yourself clearly don't know much about. In other words everything you have said makes absolutlly no sense in terms of what physicists today accept is true or at least resonable.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

momentum

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4+p^2c^2$$

So...

$$p^2=\frac{E^2}{m^2_0c^4+c^2}-1$$

or...

$$p=\sqrt{\frac{E^2}{m^2_0c^4+c^2}-1}$$

Is that an ok equation for me to experiment on? Neutrinos do have rest mass...btw.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

I don't think they have rest mass. Even if they do, it makes no difference in whether neutrinos will interact enough to cause gravity.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

Actually, they do have rest mass. They don't travel AT the speed of light, but they travel very close, ergo they have rest mass. This would make a difference. 500 trillion travel through our body every second. Barely any interact. Let's just assume only 1,000,000 interact. I'll do math and post again in a minute.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

uhhh armoskater87 i don't care what physicists u talked to at the UMCP.. or whether or not u gave an unbiased defense for the push theory of gravity... the fact is that the neutrinos DO affect us. "neutrino oscillation is exciting for another reason. if neutrinos can oscillate, then they must have some amount of mass (determined by the kamiokande team), and they are so numerous that they could exert a gravitational influence on the universe." foundations of astronomy pg. 170. and this is coming from a book that agrees with einstein's model of gravity.. so why do u ppl keep saying neutrinos don't affect us?! and I'm sorry that u think that the push theory makes absolutlly.. excuse me.. absolutely no sense to u.. but if u read more. then maybe it wouldn't..

 

[beatrix kiddo]

oh and neutrino rest mass is 7x10^-6 Mev/c^2... maybe instead of "think"ing something u should KNOW it...

 

[Chronos]

Neutrino mass is an interesting concept. Assigning it a value is even more interesting. Please show the math. That would be fascinating.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/particles/lepton.html

That site has info on the Lepton family. My friend (beatrix kiddo) is going to send me a site that actually shows the math. If you can hang tight, I can show you that math.

I'm not sure if I solved for momentum right. Any help will be greatly appreciated .

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4+p^2c^2$$ Einstein's Equation for total energy.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

just woke up

sry, stupid. i forgot to post (tv) and then it was 6.. so i just went to sleep.. but anyways i found another site by a guy who worked the neutrino mass more indepth and came out with the same answer as the guy i emailed!
http://www.bottomlayer.com/bottom/deutsch/neutrino.html
sweet... i have to find this dude's email so i can talk to him...

 

[DeShiznit44]

oh and neutrino rest mass is 7x10^-6 Mev... maybe instead of "think"ing something u should KNOW it...

Ok, first of all, u don't got to be so rude about it. He wasn't insulting you, u don't have to insult armo. It just makes u look more childish

Second, neutrino rest mass is 0(7x10^-6 Mev) as shown on the site urtalkinstupid showed us.. btw, 7x10^-6 Mev is just 7 ev. Now, 0 times any number is zero. Thus the rest mass is zero. And let's pretend for a second neutrinos have rest mass, 7 ev is WAAAAAAY to big.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

Yea, true that, and btw...MeV isn't mass, MeV/c^2 is. Read more carefully beatrix.

 

[beatrix kiddo]

i left that out.. but i know that it is needed

 

[Rampantbaboon]

Einstein's equation was $$E=mc^2$$ i don't see where you get momentum from that.

and beatrix this is from your link

Therefore, 0.07 eV = 1.24786389 x 10^-34 gm.

and that is assuming their velocity is equal to the speed of light. The rest mass is still 0.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

total energy

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4+p^2c^2$$

If an object's momentum is 0 then...

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4+0 \cdot c^2$$

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4$$
$$\sqrt{E^2}=\sqrt{m^2_0c^4}$$
$$E=m_0c^2$$

So don't tell me I'm wrong on something if you don't even know what Einstein's Total Energy equation is.

 

[Entropy]

500 trillion travel through our body every second. Barely any interact. Let's just assume only 1,000,000 interact.

Thats not even close to the amount that react. Out of 500 trillion passing through your body evergy second it would take about a month for you to get a remotely reasonable chance of just 1 hitting you.

I'm not sure if I solved for momentum right. Any help will be greatly appreciated .

I post the average neutrino has 0.81MeV of energy. That means total energy! Thats all its energy, kinetic and in mass (even though they don't have mass). The point is that's it total energy because scientists measure the energy delivered (neutrino is absorbed) to another particle when its hit by a neutrino.

So don't tell me I'm wrong on something if you don't even know what Einstein's Total Energy equation is.

Oh so know you're believing in Einstein's equations.

Btw, that is the correct equation for total energy.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

No, not believing...just trying to sink to you people's level...Give you all something that you can go by.

When I bring out something that you should all go by, I'm pronounced wrong. As if! You people don't even know what you are going by.

 

[Alkatran]

No, not believing...just trying to sink to you people's level...Give you all something that you can go by.

I think that's funny coming from a 15 year old who refuses to believe experimental evidence.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

Experimental evidence don't mean anything. I run an experimetn I eat two sandwhiches and chips. Experimental results: I eat two sandwhiches and chips.

 

[Entropy]

Experimental evidence don't mean anything. I run an experimetn I eat two sandwhiches and chips. Experimental results: I eat two sandwhiches and chips.

WHAT?! That doesn't even make sence.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

Whats ur point, are you saying you are going to calculate the energy of a neutrino with that equation?

 

[Alkatran]

Experimental evidence don't mean anything. I run an experimetn I eat two sandwhiches and chips. Experimental results: I eat two sandwhiches and chips.

Results: Chips and sandwhiches are edible, taste like something (good? bad? you're the on who ate them). etc etc etc

Math is just math until experiments hint that it could be physics.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

WHAT?! That doesn't even make sence.

sense* exactly...experiments can be performed, and they can also not make a lot of sense, because the math used to arrive at their conclusion is not well derived.

ArmoSkater87: yes.

Alkatran, math is what you make it.

 

[Alkatran]

sense* exactly...experiments can be performed, and they can also not make a lot of sense, because the math used to arrive at their conclusion is not well derived.

ArmoSkater87: yes.

Alkatran, math is what you make it.

Until it's confirmed by experiments. Stop twisting my words.

 

[urtalkinstupid]

No twisting is necessary. Math, whether it be proved by experiments or not, is what you make it. It has no definite form. You can manipulate math however you want to get the expected experimental outcomes.

 

[Alkatran]

No twisting is necessary. Math, whether it be proved by experiments or not, is what you make it. It has no definite form. You can manipulate math however you want to get the expected experimental outcomes.

That's the entire point of physics. The math matches the experiments. You're talking as if being right is somehow wrong.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

$$E^2=m^2_0c^4+p^2c^2$$

So...

$$p^2=\frac{E^2}{m^2_0c^4+c^2}-1$$

or...

$$p=\sqrt{\frac{E^2}{m^2_0c^4+c^2}-1}$$

Is that an ok equation for me to experiment on? Neutrinos do have rest mass...btw.

I'm just curious how you arrived at that...can u show how you manipulated that equation to solve for momentum. Btw...neutrinos don't have rest mass.

 

[Alkatran]

I'm just curious how you arrived at that...can u show how you manipulated that equation to solve for momentum. Btw...neutrinos don't have rest mass.

I was wondering that too. It looks like you just grabbed the whole thing, divided and changed the P to a -1 on the other side.

 

[Alkatran]

I'm just curious how you arrived at that...can u show how you manipulated that equation to solve for momentum. Btw...neutrinos don't have rest mass.

Wait I think I figured out his steps:

E^2 = m^2*c^4+p^2*c^2
E^2/(m^2*c^4+p^2*c^2) = 1
E^2/(m^2*c^4+c^2) = 1 + p^2 - Personnaly I like this step very much
E^2/(m^2*c^4+c^2)-1 = p^2

 

[urtalkinstupid]

BTW, neutrinos have rest mass. They travel at .999999c. THAT GIVES THEM A REST MASS. Although, this rest mass is very small. As I posted earlier, I wasn't exactly sure how to manipulate the equation. Everyone I've asked has gotten different ways of solving them. All of them were logical, but some yielded a negative answer. So, If you are able to solve for p, I'd appreciate your help.

I had that equation at first, but it didn't seem right...I'll work with it when I get home. I'm in the lab at my college course right now.

 

[ArmoSkater87]

How do u expect to use that equation to get a neutrino's energy?? That equation doesn't give you a particle's energy, it gives you the energy that would be released if all of the particle's mass would be converted into energy. The conversion of energy has nothing to do with your gravity theory. Not to mention that neutrons don't have rest mass...Besides Entropy was right about almost none of the neutrinos interacting with your body, or anything else. Out of all the neutrinos that go through the earth, only about 1 out of 100 billion interact with it. This means that pretty much all the neutrinos that come to earth, go right through it (in other words, if u were right, then we should be floating in the air right now). Even if the neutrinos had rest mass, and had energy or momentum...anything u want them to have, it wouldn't be enough to cause gravity. Especially when you think about how fast gravity accelerates you on Earth (9.81m/s^2).