Hilbert-Einstein action, total derivative vanish

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the derivation of Einstein's equations from the Hilbert-Einstein action, specifically focusing on the justification for the vanishing of a term that is a total derivative. Participants explore the implications of using generalized Stokes' theorem and Gauss's theorem in this context, as well as the relationship between the variation of the metric and the vanishing of certain terms in the action.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants inquire whether the vanishing of a term can be justified using Gauss's theorem, under the condition that the vector field tends to zero sufficiently fast at infinity.
  • Others mention that the term goes to zero if the variation of the metric vanishes at infinity, seeking clarification on how this relates to the total derivative term.
  • A participant proposes that the vector field in question is related to the variation of the connection and the metric, suggesting a connection between these variations and the vanishing of the term.
  • Some participants express uncertainty about the role of the variation of the metric tensor in the context of the total derivative vanishing, particularly in relation to Palatini's formulation.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the relationship between the variation of the metric tensor and the vanishing of the total derivative term. There is no consensus on how these concepts interrelate, indicating ongoing debate and exploration of the topic.

Contextual Notes

Participants note that the discussion involves assumptions about the behavior of vector fields at infinity and the conditions under which certain terms vanish, which may not be universally agreed upon.

binbagsss
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I'm looking at the deriviation of Einstein's equation via applying the principle of least action to the Hilbert-Einstein action.

I'm trying to understand the vanishing of a term because it is a total derivative: http://www.tapir.caltech.edu/~chirata/ph236/2011-12/lec33.pdf, equation 19.

My question is that, I've seen some sources that explain it via the generalized Stoke's theorem in differential forms which is a generalization of Gauss theorem, fundamental theorem of calculus etc.

I'm wondering if, once the identity in equation 19 has been made, a covariant derivative expression being expressed as a solely partial derivative expression, can this term vanishing be justified via Gauss's theorem which states that the divergence of a vector field integrated over a volume is equal to the vector integrated over the corresponding surface of the volume? If the vector fields goes to zero fast enough at infinity.

I'm not looking for rigor, just an argument that merely suffices.

Thanks your help is greatly appreciated.
 
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binbagsss said:
I'm wondering if, once the identity in equation 19 has been made, a covariant derivative expression being expressed as a solely partial derivative expression, can this term vanishing be justified via Gauss's theorem which states that the divergence of a vector field integrated over a volume is equal to the vector integrated over the corresponding surface of the volume? If the vector fields goes to zero fast enough at infinity.

I'm not looking for rigor, just an argument that merely suffices.

Thanks your help is greatly appreciated.

Yes, I don't see a question here
\int_{D} d^{4} x \ \sqrt{-g} \ \nabla_{\mu} V^{\mu} = \int_{D} d^{4} x \ \partial_{\mu} ( \sqrt{-g} V^{\mu} ) = \int_{\partial D} d \sigma_{\mu} \ \sqrt{-g} \ V^{\mu} \left( = \int d S \ n_{\mu} V^{\mu} \ \sqrt{-g} = 0 \right), if the vector field tends to zero sufficiently fast at infinity.
 
samalkhaiat said:
Yes, I don't see a question here
\int_{D} d^{4} x \ \sqrt{-g} \ \nabla_{\mu} V^{\mu} = \int_{D} d^{4} x \ \partial_{\mu} ( \sqrt{-g} V^{\mu} ) = \int_{\partial D} d \sigma_{\mu} \ \sqrt{-g} \ V^{\mu} \left( = \int d S \ n_{\mu} V^{\mu} \ \sqrt{-g} = 0 \right), if the vector field tends to zero sufficiently fast at infinity.
Thanks. And many sources say that this term goes to zero if the variation of the metric ##\delta g^{uv}## vanishes at infinity.
I don't understand how this relates?
 
binbagsss said:
Thanks. And many sources say that this term goes to zero if the variation of the metric ##\delta g^{uv}## vanishes at infinity.
I don't understand how this relates?

I don’t know which term that is. If you are talking about the variation of the Einstein-Hilbert action, then I believe you encounter such thing g^{\mu \nu} \delta R_{\mu \nu} = \nabla_{\sigma} ( g^{\mu \sigma} \delta \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \rho} - g^{\mu \nu} \delta \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\mu \nu} ) . So, the vector field in this context is V^{\sigma} = g^{\mu \sigma} \delta \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \rho} - g^{\mu \nu} \delta \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\mu \nu} . Therefore, the identity \sqrt{-g} \nabla_{\sigma} V^{\sigma} = \partial_{\sigma} ( \sqrt{-g} \ V^{\sigma} ) , allows you to write \int d^{4} x \ \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \nu} \ \delta R_{\mu \nu} = \int d^{4} x \ \partial_{\sigma} ( \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \sigma} \delta \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \rho} - \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \nu} \delta \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\mu \nu} ) = 0 .
 
samalkhaiat said:
\int d^{4} x \ \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \nu} \ \delta R_{\mu \nu} = \int d^{4} x \ \partial_{\sigma} ( \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \sigma} \delta \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \rho} - \sqrt{-g} \ g^{\mu \nu} \delta \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\mu \nu} ) = 0 .

And this requires ##V^{\sigma} = g^{\mu \sigma} \delta \Gamma^{\rho}_{\mu \rho} - g^{\mu \nu} \delta \Gamma^{\sigma}_{\mu \nu} \to 0 ## fast enough, So I think that's that all tensors in this expression must ##\to 0 ## fast enough, but the variation of the metric tensor vanishing here plays no role in ##V^{\sigma} \to 0## does it?

Wikipedia looks like it has the same working as above, but makes the final comment on the variation of the metric vanishing which I don't understand : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einstein–Hilbert_action , under Variation of the Riemann tensor, the Ricci tensor, and the Ricci scalar, bottom two lines.

Thanks.
 
binbagsss said:
... but the variation of the metric tensor vanishing here plays no role in ##V^{\sigma} \to 0## does it?
Thanks.
Yes it does. The variation of the connection, \delta \Gamma, is brought about by the variation of the metric tensor, i.e. \delta \Gamma \propto \delta g.
 
samalkhaiat said:
Yes it does. The variation of the connection, \delta \Gamma, is brought about by the variation of the metric tensor, i.e. \delta \Gamma \propto \delta g.
Ah okay thanks. I thought they may not because of palatini's formulation, where the variations with respect to the metric and connection are taken separately.
 

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