How can a permeable piston be adiabatic?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of a permeable piston and its characterization as adiabatic. Participants explore the implications of permeability in relation to heat exchange and the physical properties of materials used in such pistons, with references to theoretical and practical applications.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant questions how a permeable piston can be considered adiabatic, suggesting that heat exchange would occur through the permeable material.
  • Another participant challenges the very notion of a permeable piston, asking how it can function as a piston at all.
  • A different viewpoint proposes using an ice cube as a piston, which is permeable to water but not to heat, and suggests that microporous materials could serve as ideal permeable adiabatic pistons for liquid helium.
  • One participant describes the concept as an idealization, explaining that while substances can flow through the pores, the piston material itself does not conduct heat, likening it to insulated capillaries.
  • Another participant mentions the use of a permeable 'piston' in a Stirling engine, clarifying that the term 'displacer' is often used in this context to differentiate from traditional pistons.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the feasibility and definition of a permeable piston, with no consensus reached on its characteristics or implications for adiabatic processes.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight various assumptions about the materials and conditions under which a permeable piston could operate, including the nature of heat conduction and the specific substances involved.

arpon
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How can a permeable piston be adiabatic? If substances can go in and out of the cylinder and the substances have heat energy, heat can be exchanged through a permeable piston.
I came across this term in the book, but cannot understand.
 
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How can a permeable piston even be a piston?
 
You could use an ice cube as a piston which is permeable for water at 0 deg. , but impermeable for heat. Better even, use some porous material which strongly absorbs the substance it shall be permeable for. The substance will loose its thermal energy when first binding to the material, and then diffuse against the temperature gradiet. Microporous substances are permeable for the superfluid component of liquid Helium which has S=0, but not the non-superfluid phase, which has S>0, so they can act as nearly ideal permeable adiabatic pistons for helium.
 
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It's an idealization. Substances can flow through the pores, but the material comprising the piston does not conduct heat. This would be the same deal as an array of insulated capillaries in parallel.
 
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Vanadium 50 said:
How can a permeable piston even be a piston?

A Stirling engine involves the use of a permeable 'piston' although the term 'displacer' is used to distinguish it from the type of 'piston' you have in mind.
 
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