ThinAirDesign
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Topher925 said:You and me both, schroder.
Topher -- what, you've got no response to the land sailors beating the cr** out of the balloon?
JB
Topher925 said:You and me both, schroder.
Trond said:Please elaborate that. Are you saying that the wind the propeller feels because it's turned by the wheels is making the propeller turn faster?
Trond said:How come this thing will advance on a threadmill without any wind present?
schroder said:What you are really describing here is a perpetual motion machine and it is an elaborate hoax.
Topher925 said:Also, I have constructed a vector diagram and analyzed it as I have asked spork to do several times.
Its pretty clear just by looking at the diagram itself that the thing will never have a downwind component faster than the wind.
If I have time today, which I probably wont, I'll graph the resulting equation you get from the graph to make the point a little more clear.
ThinAirDesign said:Topher -- what, you've got no response to the land sailors beating the cr** out of the balloon?
JB
Topher925 said:Response to what? All you have done is just made some claim with no real evidence or any type of analysis to support it. What am I suppose to respond to?
Topher925 said:Response to what? All you have done is just made some claim with no real evidence or any type of analysis to support it. What am I suppose to respond to?
Vb = Vt * sin(gamma - beta) /sin(beta)
Vb: yacht speed
Vt: true wind speed
gamma: course sailed relative to true wind (gamma = 0 is straight
into the wind)
beta: apparent wind angle, measured between course over the ground
and the apparent wind vector
The closer the yacht can sail to the apparent wind (small beta), the
faster it goes. A typical beta for an efficient landyacht is on the
order of 14 degrees, which yields a maximum boat-speed ratio of 4
times the true wind, and a maximum Vmg downwind of 2.5 times the true
wind.
Trond said:Please elaborate that. Are you saying that the wind the propeller feels because it's turned by the wheels is making the propeller turn faster?
The half you are missing is that once the sail begins to 'see' apparent wind at the appropriate angle, it generates thrust (just as a sailboat sail does) and it is this thrust that pulls the cart off the treadmill restraint. Again, the gearing between the wheels and the sail/prop only serves to set the tack angle of the sails.
Trond said:So the propeller turns solely by itself as soon as it starts turning, is that what you are saying? (Y/N?))
Let's keep with the cart on the treadmill here and let's assume it's held back perhaps by a tensiometer, no wind. What's making the propeller spin?
The apparent wind created by it's own rotation, is that what you are claiming? (Y/N)
this is not true. You are dropping a piece of the puzzle.LURCH said:If it can go downwind faster than the wind, then it can sail when there is no wind. After all, that would just be going "faster" than the stationary air around it.
In fact, it must do exactly that at some point during the test run in the video. Somewhere along that run, the craft is stationary relative to the air around it, yet contiues to accelerate. This means that, as stated above, the craft can sail during a dead-calm. This amounts to a sailing craft that needs no energy input to provide propulsion.
See, your "held back perhaps by a tensionmeter, no wind" is a question that just doesn't make any sense.
LURCH said:If it can go downwind faster than the wind, then it can sail when there is no wind. After all, that would just be going "faster" than the stationary air around it.
In fact, it must do exactly that at some point during the test run in the video. Somewhere along that run, the craft is stationary relative to the air around it, yet contiues to accelerate. This means that, as stated above, the craft can sail during a dead-calm. This amounts to a sailing craft that needs no energy input to provide propulsion.
Hm. Can't find a flaw in this argument. It does seem to eliminate all the confusing components, leaving nothing but an over-unity paradox, wherein the wheels must drive the propellor to generate more thrust than the wheels are getting from the treadmill.PhysicsAddict said:In order to understand this you need not understand sailing, relative wind, apparent wind or ANYTHING other than Newtons 1st law.
To get your head around this, imagine the cart facing west sitting on a long treadmill in a long windless hallway. Start the treadmill which runs towards the east and slowly increase the treadmill speed until the cart is at the perfect “break even” point. In other words, to an observer standing still in the hallway, the cart appears to also be standing perfectly still even though it is on the treadmill with its wheels spinning and propeller turning. This is the point where the cart goes EXACTLY as fast as the wind downwind. We don’t need it to go faster than the wind downwind yet. Right here at the break even point is the best place to get your head around it.
Now you don't need to understand anything more that two simple ideas:
1. You must understand Newton’s 1st law of motion - specifically pertaining to balanced and unbalanced forces. In order for the cart to appear to stand perfectly still on the treadmill, the forces pushing on the cart from the east must equal the forces pushing on the cart from the west.
In other words, let’s say that the treadmill is expending 10 Newtons of energy driving the cart east. Since the forces are balanced, the propeller on the cart must be expending 10 Newtons of energy driving the cart west in order to hold it stationary. Since the cart is not experiencing ANY wind pushing it at this point, all its energy driving it west must come from thrust generated by the propeller.
2. You must understand that mankind has yet to invent a machine simple or complex that outputs 100% of the energy it consumes. A propeller is at best 85% efficient. Add in the other components of friction and well it all goes downhill from there. In other words it would be impossible for the cart even get to this break even point. It will never generate thrust equal to the energy it consumes. Now to go even faster than the wind it will have to generate thrust IN EXCESS of the energy it consumes which of course is never going to happen.
Since you now understand these two simple ideas, you can now conclude that the video can only be either:
A. A hoax.
B. Some other "artifact" captured on film.
So here it is reduced to it's minimum components. Nothing to obfuscate here. Very simple.
If you contend that it is possible then all you need to answer is this simple non-obfuscated problem:
Let's suppose that the treadmill imparts a continuous 10 Newtons of force where the treadmill belt strikes the wheels. Please lay out the equations for me assuming your propeller is 90% efficient (that would be an awesome propeller BTW) and there is no friction in the inner gearing of the device. Show me where the device is able to generate continuous thrust in excess of 10 Newtons in order to break even and stand still.
It's a simple equation I assure you. If you need the equation I can point you toward it.
So if you would please lay it out for us where 10N into the propeller results in >= 10N of thrust out.
Trond said:Ok, how come Jack Goodman has done just that and gotten a result?
It will never generate thrust equal to the energy it consumes.
DaveC426913 said:Hm. Can't find a flaw in this argument. It does seem to eliminate all the confusing components, leaving nothing but an over-unity paradox, wherein the wheels must drive the propellor to generate more thrust than the wheels are getting from the treadmill.
ThinAirDesign said:He hasn't -- you're simply continue to misunderstand what he's done. I can say this with certainty as to me he's merely a phone call away.
JB
ThinAirDesign said:Yes, it's all nice and it's all simple and it "eliminates all the confusing components" etc. Mission accomplished.
Problem is, it's just wrong as the wheels don't provide the force to turn the propeller to generate the thrust to drive the wheels.
JB
PhysicsAddict said:Indeed he has. Go read right here. He claims to certainly have tested it on a tensiometer.
http://www.ayrs.org/DWFTTW_from_Catalyst_N23_Jan_2006.pdf
Trond said:I'm too slow
And welcome aboard...finally someone that seems to be thinking in the same box as I do
LOL Trond -- it's a bit speedy back and forth, that's for sure. :-)
ThinAirDesign said:Indeed he has not. You're confusing the argument between Trond and I.
Trond says the tensiometer test is done with "no wind" (that's his quote). This is simply not true.
The test was done on a treadmill and as any PhysicsAddict will know, there is the *same, exact* wind available to this device on a treadmill moving 10mph in a room as there is in a 10mph wind out on the street.
ALL of Jack's tests and video have been performed WITH WIND.
JB
PhysicsAddict said:That really looks like a treadmill test with a tensiometer with no wind.
ThinAirDesign said:Are you really trying to tell me that you have the handle "PhysicsAddict" and don't understand simple physics frames of reference? -- I mean, no offense if you don't ...
JB
red x
It's working now, as stated, it takes a while before an attached image is approved, so I normally post a link as well when I do attachments.spork said:It's a .gif image.
fan blowing on sail
Not quite, the jet engine uses a compressor and heat to create a huge pressure jump. You'd need a strong power source and a prop with a pressure jump to higher than ambient to pull this off. A high efficiency prop wouldn't work, because the pressure jump occurs below ambient, and air is decelerating once it passes through the prop disk.This is the same principle as a thrust reverser on a jet engine.
The device is relying on the difference between wind speed and ground speed as a source of power, which is independent of the device speed. In the case of the treadmill, the treadmill is moving backwards while the air is still. In the case of the outdoor run, there's a tail wind and the ground isn't moving.LURCH said:If it can go downwind faster than the wind, then it can sail when there is no wind.
Not quite, the jet engine uses a compressor and heat to create a huge pressure jump. You'd need a strong power source and a prop with a pressure jump to higher than ambient to pull this off. A high efficiency prop wouldn't work, because the pressure jump occurs below ambient, and air is decelerating once it passes through the prop disk.
It doesn't, it experiences 0 wind speed and -10mph speed at the wheels.PhysicsAddict said:... cart is on the treadmill ... explain how the cart ... experiences a 10 mph wind.
If you stand on the treadmill while it's moving at -10mph you will experience the equivalent of a +10 mph tail wind.If I run on the treadmill which is set to 10mph and I am in a room with still air do you think I feel a 10mph breeze on my face?
fan on a sail similar to jet engine reverse thrust
Jeff Reid said:Not quite, the jet engine uses a compressor and heat to create a huge pressure jump. You'd need a strong power source and a prop with a pressure jump to higher than ambient to pull this off. A high efficiency prop wouldn't work, because the pressure jump occurs below ambient, and air is decelerating once it passes through the prop disk.
Yes, but note that the engine is also sucking in air. The intake accelerates the air backwards, the diverted nozzles accelerate the air forwards, with the result of opposing forces. There has to be an increase in kinetic energy of the air being accelerated forwards by the diverters before there's a net braking effect. In the case of a jet engine, there's a huge pressure jump well above ambient because of combustion. Note that a propeller operates in it's induced wash, the pressure of the air just before it crosses the prop disk is below ambient. If the pressure jump doesn't cause the pressure to exceed ambient, then the air starts deceleration once it's past the aft side of the propeller disk, reducing it's kinetic energy over time and distance, and in this case, the diverters would just reduce thrust, not reverse it.Trond said:Doesn't a thrust reverser just divert the airflow?
nixy2 said:OK...Question 1.
Trolley with prop at zero degrees. (could even be just a rotating disc) Assuming no mechanical drag. What might be the highest speed the trolley could achieve?
and are the wheels producing thrust or drag at this condition?
If you stand on the treadmill while it's moving at -10mph you will experience the equivalent of a +10 mph tail wind.
Jeff Reid said:It doesn't it experiences 0 wind speed and -10mph speed at the wheels.
If you stand on the treadmill while it's moving at -10mph you will experience the equivalent of a +10 mph tail wind.
Great, and I'm still not convinced it works yet. Start with a simpler case, a very long treadmill, and the device has drag inducing device, say a parachute or a solid disk. The air applies a forwards force to the device, while the treadmill applies a backwards force to the device. In this case the wheels could be connnected to a generator which would create power. The point here is that if the cart is moving slower than the belt speed due to aerodynamic forces, then power from the wheels can be harnessed.PhysicsAddict said:So, if it experiences 0 wind speed and 10mph belt speed then what is it that is powering the propeller. Since ThinAirDesigns hasn't answered, I pose the question to you Jeff.
Jeff Reid said:The air applies a forwards force to the device
Since you now understand these two simple ideas, you can now conclude that the video can only be either:
A. A hoax.
B. Some other "artifact" captured on film.
Can you continuously absorb 10N of force from the belt and use it to continuously produce 10N of thrust in order to stay stationary on the belt?
Jeff Reid said:Not quite, the jet engine uses a compressor and heat to create a huge pressure jump. You'd need a strong power source and a prop with a pressure jump to higher than ambient to pull this off. A high efficiency prop wouldn't work, because the pressure jump occurs below ambient, and air is decelerating once it passes through the prop disk.
Jeff Reid said:Great, and I'm still not convinced it works yet.
Trond said:Is the bet really your only agenda Spork since you keep on asking about it or is it pondering about a problem which seem to drive the rest...I'm beginning to agree with the guy that mentioned nigerian scam on RR...it's boring.
Trond said:Is the bet really your only agenda Spork since you keep on asking about it or is it pondering about a problem which seem to drive the rest...I'm beginning to agree with the guy that mentioned nigerian scam on RR...it's boring.