How Do You Calculate Induced Voltage in a Coil with External Magnetic Field?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around calculating the induced voltage in a coil placed in an external magnetic field, exploring the implications of self-induction and the interactions between the external field and the field generated by the induced current in the coil. The conversation touches on theoretical aspects, practical applications, and specific scenarios involving transformers and generators.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant suggests using Faraday's law to calculate the induced voltage but questions how to define the magnetic field B, considering both the external field and the field created by the induced current.
  • Another participant confirms that self-induction occurs when current flows in the loop, complicating the calculation of the induced voltage due to the loop's impedance and self-inductance.
  • A later reply discusses the practical implications in transformers, noting that the primary current can create sufficient flux and that the secondary current also contributes to the overall magnetic field dynamics.
  • Further contributions elaborate on the behavior of generators and motors, highlighting the need for compensation in the presence of significant output currents and the role of phase shifts in AC motors.
  • One participant shares an anecdote about designing an RFID system, noting that the induction from the chip card exceeded that of the reader due to resonant effects, which raises questions about the expected behavior of induction.
  • Another participant emphasizes the importance of including the term dA/dt in the equations related to induction, discussing its implications in various contexts, including superconductors.
  • There is a technical inquiry about the placement of the vector potential A in the equations, leading to a proposed expression for voltage that includes contributions from both the magnetic flux and the line integral of A.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express various viewpoints on the complexities of calculating induced voltage, with no consensus reached on a single approach or model. Multiple competing ideas and interpretations of the equations involved are present throughout the discussion.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight limitations in their reasoning, such as the dependence on specific definitions and the need for careful consideration of the spatial distribution of magnetic fields. Some mathematical steps remain unresolved, particularly regarding the integration of vector potentials.

daudaudaudau
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Hello.

Say I have a single turn of a coil in an external magnetic field. How do I calculate the voltage induced in this turn ? Initially I would use Faraday's law

∇×E = -j ω B

But what should I use for B ? Will B not be a combination of both the external field as well as the field created by the current induced in the coil:

∇×B = μ J = μ σ E

?

Suddenly the problem seems more complicated!
 
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That's correct. If current can flow in the loop - that is, the loop is closed somehow - then it does create its own induction and flux. This is called self-induction.

The distribution of the induction differs when the coil creates it, for instance it's stronger near the conductor, so detailed spatial comparison helps little.

Reasoning with the electric circuit helps more. The external field induces a potential difference across the loop. The loop has its own impedance, which includes its self-inductance and possibly other circuit elements. The potential difference divided by the (complex) impedance defines a current. This current tells you what field the loop creates by reaction.
 
Your question has very concrete practical implications.

In a good transformer, which has no gap and a permeable iron core, very little primary current suffices to create the flux. The voltage induced at the secondary can make current flow at an external use, and the secondary current creates a flux just as the primary current does. As current is used at the secondary, the primary current increases to keep the flux constant, following N1I1=N2I2 plus the magnetizing current.

In a powerful generator (10kW to 1600MW) little current is needed to create the initial induction, but the output current's effect can be much stronger than this initial current, even at low copper losses. The output current would bring the field to zero far before reaching this maximum, if it were not compensated by increasing the excitation current accordingly and actively to keep the desired induction. This resembles the transformer.

This is more easily done if the output current is resistive than inductive and is one excellent reason why electricity companies want customers to show a good cos(phi).

Same in a motor of non-negligible power. DC motors have compensations windings, which are perpendicular to the field windings, only to compensate the flux created by the rotor's current; the compensation winding is more massive and consumes more power than the field winding, beginning around 100kW. This is less visible - but very present and important! - in AC motors; there, one set of stator windings are both the field and compensation windings because the 90° phase at a rotating field means only a different mechanical angle shift at the rotor. Electronic control of AC motors avoids the time lag resulting from the mechanical angle shift by shifting the AC phase proactively - it's called vector control.

Just for fun: when I designed the 13.56MHz RFID (long ago...) I observed that the induction created by the chip card was stronger than the one made by the reader. In other words, the reaction exceeded the action, which was puzzling as the reaction should have compensated the action before being as strong, stopping the game.

But at the card, I had a resonant LC circuit which let the current flow in phase with the induced voltage, instead of lagging by 90° in a self-inductance alone, so the reaction field was in quadrature with the reader's field, and the reaction could exceed the action without compensating it. This took me some time to understand...

Apologies for the lengthy answer, electromagnetics is just puzzling...
 
In the second equation, E must be complemented by dA/dt, possibly with some sign if you like.

This is all-important in induction. For instance in a generator, copper wires shall have low loss, meaning E~0, but you get a V at the terminals thanks to the induction dA/dt summed over the conductor path (or d phi / dt if you prefer). Or even, E=0 in a superconductor, which is considered practically for generators and motors, at orientable pods for boats for instance. Though there, it would supposedly be a type II superconductor, which has a resistance.
 
Enthalpy said:
In the second equation, E must be complemented by dA/dt, possibly with some sign if you like.

This is all-important in induction. For instance in a generator, copper wires shall have low loss, meaning E~0, but you get a V at the terminals thanks to the induction dA/dt summed over the conductor path (or d phi / dt if you prefer). Or even, E=0 in a superconductor, which is considered practically for generators and motors, at orientable pods for boats for instance. Though there, it would supposedly be a type II superconductor, which has a resistance.

Thanks for the answers. Where exactly should A be included ? In the first equation, ∇×E=-j ω B, I would put E=-\nabla V-j \omega A to give
<br /> \oint\left(\nabla V+j\omega A\right)\cdot dl=j\omega \Phi<br />

So does this mean that my voltage is
<br /> V=j\omega\Phi-j\omega\oint A\cdot dl<br />
?
 

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