How is Simultaneity Defined in Spacetime Diagrams by A.P. French?

Click For Summary

Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of simultaneity in spacetime diagrams as presented in A.P. French's work on special relativity. Participants explore how simultaneity is defined in different reference frames, particularly focusing on the implications of the midpoint method and the representation of simultaneous events in spacetime diagrams.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants express confusion about why events A1' and C1' are considered simultaneous in the S' frame, despite understanding the midpoint method that suggests simultaneity based on light signals emitted from a midpoint.
  • There is a repeated inquiry into why simultaneity is defined by the line A1 C1 in the S frame rather than just the two points A1 and C1, with participants seeking clarification on this definition.
  • One participant explains that the line represents all events that are simultaneous with A1 and C1 in the S frame, indicating that simultaneity encompasses more than just the two events.
  • Another participant notes that all events on a line parallel to A1 C1 are simultaneous, further emphasizing the broader definition of simultaneity in spacetime diagrams.
  • Some participants acknowledge the importance of recognizing that simultaneity is frame dependent, which is a key aspect of understanding special relativity.
  • There is mention of a missing x'-axis parallel to A1' C1' in frame S', which may contribute to confusion regarding the construction of simultaneity in that frame.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants generally agree on the frame-dependent nature of simultaneity, but there remains confusion and lack of consensus regarding the specific definition of simultaneity as represented by lines in spacetime diagrams.

Contextual Notes

The discussion highlights limitations in understanding the graphical representation of simultaneity and the assumptions involved in defining events as simultaneous across different frames. The nuances of the midpoint method and the implications of light signals are central to the conversation.

Pushoam
Messages
961
Reaction score
53
s1.png
s2.png
s3.png
s4.png
SS.png


The images have been taken from page no.74,75 and 76, special relativity , A.P.French,1968
I understood that A1' and C1' are not simultaneous in S -frame.
But I don't understand the principle on whose basis it is claimed that A1' and C1' are simultaneous in S' -frame.

Here, the simultaneity is defined by the line A1 C1 in S -frame. I didn't understand this ,too.
The simultaneity should be defined by two points A1 and C1 in S -frame. Shouldn't it?

Can anyone please explain these two points?
 

Attachments

  • S5.png
    S5.png
    51.1 KB · Views: 455
  • S6.png
    S6.png
    93 KB · Views: 503
  • s7.png
    s7.png
    31.3 KB · Views: 519
  • s8.png
    s8.png
    35.7 KB · Views: 506
  • s9.png
    s9.png
    58.3 KB · Views: 494
Physics news on Phys.org
Pushoam said:
But I don't understand the principle on whose basis it is claimed that A1' and C1' are simultaneous in S' -frame.
I have understood it now.
A,B,C are at rest in S' frame and B is in the middle of AC.
So, the light emitted by B will reach A and C at the same time.
Hence, A1' and C1' are simultaneous in S' -frame.

But I haven't understood the second question.
Pushoam said:
Here, the simultaneity is defined by the line A1 C1 in S -frame. I didn't understand this ,too.
The simultaneity should be defined by two points A1 and C1 in S -frame. Shouldn't it?
 
The logic in the second diagram is the same as the first. You're using the same method, which can concisely be described as the midpoint method, to determine if two events are simultaneous or not, but in a different frame of reference.

The midpoint method says that if B is the midpoint between A and C, a signal emitted at B will arive "at the same time" at events A and C. The tricky part is to realize that the notion of "at the same time" is frame dependent, which is what the exercise is trying to show. If you assume that "at the same time" has some meaning independent of the frame of reference used, and you try to assume that the speed of light is equal to "c" for all observers, you'll wind up with a paradox. One of the two assumptions has to go. Many people get stuck here, and can't let go of the notion that simultaneity depends on the frame of reference, so they basically wind up rejecting the important notion of relativity, that the speed of light is "c" for all observers.

But if you can accept the idea that simultaneity is frame dependent, the seeming paradox disappears.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Pushoam
pervect said:
But if you can accept the idea that simultaneity is frame dependent, the seeming paradox disappears.
This I understood, pervect.
What I don't understand is :
Why is the simultaneity defined by the line A1 C1 in S -frame instead of the two points A1and C1?
Please, explain me this.
 
Pushoam said:
This I understood, pervect.
What I don't understand is :
Why is the simultaneity defined by the line A1 C1 in S -frame instead of the two points A1and C1?
Please, explain me this.
Because simultaneity is not limited to the two events, there can be an infinite number of events which are simultaneous. That's what that line represents, the set of all possible events in spacetime simultaneous with ##A_1## and ##C_1## in frame ##S##. Simultaneity on the space-time diagram is represented by lines parallel to the ##x## axis.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Pushoam
Pushoam said:
This I understood, pervect.
What I don't understand is :
Why is the simultaneity defined by the line A1 C1 in S -frame instead of the two points A1and C1?
Please, explain me this.
Because all events on that line are simultaneous, not just those two. In fact, all pairs of events on any line parallel to that one are simultaneous.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Pushoam
Possibly its confusing that the ##x'-##axis parallel to ##A_1' C_1'## in frame ##S'## is missing.
 
  • Like
Likes   Reactions: Pushoam
timmdeeg said:
Possibly its confusing that the ##x'-##axis parallel to ##A_1' C_1'## in frame ##S'## is missing.

The next diagram in sequence [in the attachments] constructs the x'-axis.
I think the point of the complete passage is to construct the x'-axis for S', starting from "simultaneity according to S' ".
 
robphy said:
The next diagram in sequence [in the attachments] constructs the x'-axis.
Ah, which I'd overlooked, thanks.
 

Similar threads

  • · Replies 12 ·
Replies
12
Views
2K
  • · Replies 35 ·
2
Replies
35
Views
4K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
2K
  • · Replies 20 ·
Replies
20
Views
3K
  • · Replies 16 ·
Replies
16
Views
2K
  • · Replies 27 ·
Replies
27
Views
3K
  • · Replies 81 ·
3
Replies
81
Views
5K
  • · Replies 5 ·
Replies
5
Views
2K
  • · Replies 6 ·
Replies
6
Views
3K
  • · Replies 51 ·
2
Replies
51
Views
5K