How is the derivative of an inexact differential defined?

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the definition and interpretation of the derivative of inexact differentials, particularly in the context of thermodynamics as presented in Callen's work. Participants explore the implications of differentiating inexact differentials like dQ with respect to temperature (T) and the treatment of T as a constant in certain formulations.

Discussion Character

  • Technical explanation
  • Conceptual clarification
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants question what differentiation with respect to T means for inexact differentials like dQ, seeking clarification on its mathematical implications.
  • One participant suggests that differentiation should not be interpreted as a standard derivative but rather as a ratio of incremental changes in values, specifically relating to heat changes with respect to temperature changes.
  • Another participant argues that the formula d'Q = TdS does not imply that T is constant, providing an analogy with classical mechanics to illustrate that T can vary while still being defined in terms of derivatives.
  • There is a reference to the first law of thermodynamics and how it relates to the definition of temperature as a function of entropy (S) and volume (V), suggesting that T is not a constant but a variable dependent on these factors.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing views on the interpretation of differentiation concerning inexact differentials, with no consensus reached on whether T should be treated as constant or variable in the context of the discussed formulas.

Contextual Notes

Participants note the importance of distinguishing inexact differentials and the implications of their mathematical treatment, highlighting potential misunderstandings in the interpretation of thermodynamic relationships.

spin_100
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This is from Callen's thermodynamics. What does the differentiation with respect to T means for an inexact differential like dQ. Also why is T treated as a constant if we start by replacing dQ by TdS? Any references to the relevant mathematics will be much appreciated.
 
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spin_100 said:
This is from Callen's thermodynamics. What does the differentiation with respect to T means for an inexact differential like dQ.
I am a little rusty but I think that this should not be interpreted as a differentiation but as a ratio of two incremental changes in values. In this case the change in the heat of a system d'Q * that occurs when the temperature increases by dT at a temperature of T.
\frac{d'Q}{dt }\neq \frac{d}{dt}\left ( Q \right )


* Thermodynamics by Sears always distinguishes inexact differentials with a prime superscript on d indicating a small change in the value of the quantity..
 
gleem said:
this should not be interpreted as a differentiation but as a ratio of two incremental changes in values.
Exactly.
 
spin_100 said:
Also why is T treated as a constant if we start by replacing dQ by TdS?
The formula ##d'Q=TdS## does not imply that ##T## is constant.

For analogy, consider classical mechanics of a particle moving in one dimension. The infinitesimal path ##dx## during the time ##dt## is ##dx=vdt##, but it does not imply that the velocity ##v(t)## is constant. Instead, it means that ##v(t)## is defined as
$$v(t)=\frac{dx(t)}{dt}$$
which physicists write in the infinitesimal form ##dx=vdt##.

Indeed, similarly to ##v##, the ##T## can also be thought of as defined by a derivative formula. But it is not ##T=d'Q/dS## or ##T=dQ/dS##, because such things are not defined as derivatives. Instead, starting from the 1st law of thermodynamics
$$dU=TdS-PdV$$
we see that ##U## must be a function of ##S## and ##V##, because then we have the mathematical identity
$$dU(S,V)=\left( \frac{\partial U(S,V)}{\partial S} \right)_V dS +
\left( \frac{\partial U(S,V)}{\partial V} \right)_S dV$$
which is compatible with the 1st law above. The compatibility implies that ##T## can be defined as
$$T(S,V)=\left( \frac{\partial U(S,V)}{\partial S} \right)_V$$
which is a function of ##S## and ##V##, not a constant.
 
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