I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

[monroelkjr]

That's a little to hypothetical there Maze. I will say that might get you to space but you have to get to space and turn left (or some direction) and go 8km/s to get into orbit. We were at one point going to use a special compound Light Gas Gun to acheve orbital velostiy. From space that would work however proving it might prove difficult.

M

 

[monroelkjr]

One more thing anything launched from Earth will re-enter the atmosphere at the point it left the atmosphere without a boost at apogee. Escape velosity is leaving the gravitational field of the Earth and outward bound.

M

 

[maze]

Hmm interesting. Thinking out loud, you could send the payload to the upper atmosphere in a high-altitude balloon, then detonate the explosives up there to achieve sufficient orbital velocity for an ellipse. To give a boost at the apogee and avoid hitting the atmosphere on the way back, you could have 12 smaller sub-payloads in a dodecahedral shape, with a secondary explosive charge in the middle. One of the pieces is bound to go in the right direction.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?

The quantity of explosives and energy required would be enormous. That's the point of rockets. They focus their energy and use it in a calculated fashion. Imagine trying to get a canonball out of a canon into orbit. A canon is a very crude projectile launcher using a "shaped" explosion though similar to your scenario of simply placing the projectile atop some explosives.

 

[monroelkjr]

Maze
That might work theoretically? We just prefer a little more direct approach :) I have to get to work on the lathe so I'll stop by later. Maze, Google "light gas gun" and tell me what you think. This sounds like something you would be interested in.

M

 

[monroelkjr]

Guy's
Try not to use the terms explosion, detonate, bomb, ect... Are we scientist here or what? Reaction, accelerate things like that are scientific. If you want to blow something up join the Army and get paid to do it.

M

 

[JasonRox]

Guy's
Try not to use the terms explosion, detonate, bomb, ect... Are we scientist here or what? Reaction, accelerate things like that are scientific. If you want to blow something up join the Army and get paid to do it.

M

Yeah but I can make like 30 small little rockets and spend $3000 on explosives, put the rockets on top, and maybe when it explodes one of the rockets will reach its desired height.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The total estimated cost is @$250.000

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.

15. Use of 'Salvaged' and Donated Items
Entrants are encouraged to make imaginative use of items that are salvaged, recycled, donated etc, provided this is within the spirit of the N-Prize Challenge. Broadly, it should be possible for any skilled person to replicate your entry for the same budget and with the same amount of luck and negotiating skills. So, for example, using a discarded mobile phone as part of the telemetry equipment, or the tube from a vacuum cleaner as part of a rocket nozzle, are acceptable. On the other hand, using a complete rocket assembly from a satellite launch system, bought as scrap from a close friend at NASA for $10, would not be considered acceptable. Donations of hardware will be judged on a case-by-case basis. If your neighbour gives you five metres of surplus electrical cable, that's fine. If a local machine shop custom builds a complete rocket casing and 'gives' it to you in exchange for a little publicity, that's less likely to be acceptable. Entrants are strongly advised to contact the organisers to confirm that they are remaining within the rules and spirit of the N-Prize Challenge.

I admire all the people who are chasing after nearly impossible goals. But in this case, so many aspects of the goal seem arbitrary. If it weren't for the n-prize, would you be considering a payload of between 10 and 20 grams? Would you be limiting something or other, I'm not sure what, to 1000 British Pounds? 9 orbits? 100 km altitude?

 

[JasonRox]

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.



I admire all the people who are chasing after nearly impossible goals. But in this case, so many aspects of the goal seem arbitrary. If it weren't for the n-prize, would you be considering a payload of between 10 and 20 grams? Would you be limiting something or other, I'm not sure what, to 1000 British Pounds? 9 orbits? 100 km altitude?

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

 

[Astronuc]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?

Gerald Bull attempted that with larger payloads in his Project HARP - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_HARP

An alternative - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_High_Altitude_Research_Project

The concept of ballistic escape velocity is well proven. The largest challenge is maintaining such high velocities, because air resistance and aerothermal heating will significantly slow down any such object.

A rocket does it at lower speeds to the losses due to air resistance are less and the aerothermal heating is negligible. As the rocket goes higher and the atmosphere thins, higher speeds are not as problematic.

 

[Dadface]

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

Done it already.Where's my money?

 

[Redbelly98]

The total estimated cost is @$250.000

This seems to be at odds with the cost limit of the contest.

I think that $250k is considered overhead expenses, and doesn't count against the limit stated in the contest rules. Once you are set up for launch, they are concerned with the cost-per-launch after that point.

At least that's my take on things.

 

[Redbelly98]

Done it already.Where's my money?

Be patient. As soon as the Nigerian princess gives Jason the $1,000,000.00 she promised him, you'll get your money.

 

[JasonRox]

I succeeded!

I bought a small rocket at the hobby store and I launched last week. I programmed my computer to keep track of it. And it show that it reached 112 km in height and orbited 13 times. That's more than enough.

I think my code is good. I wrote it in Visual Basics.

You click the button and it gives you the stats. Here's the code...

Dim height as integer
Dim orbit as integer

height = 112 'set default height at 112km
orbit = 13 'set default orbit number at 13

Textbox1.text = height 'tell user the height reached
Textbox2.text = orbit 'tell user the number of orbits

 

[Borek]

Dim height as integer

Must be wrong, height is not an integer.

 

[JasonRox]

Must be wrong, height is not an integer.

Yeah, I'll change that to a double and it should be all good. I will re-launch tomorrow.

 

[Redbelly98]

I like the pictures of Monroe's team's rocket:
http://www.teamprometheus.org/Begining.html

Note the inscription on the far right here
http://www.teamprometheus.org/files/IMG_pene_130.jpg

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, That was a model for the news team we built overnight before the interview. I don't enjoy watching others squirm around because they can't wrap there minds around this project. It might make a diffrence if their was some contribution but I can see the results here will be zero.

M

 

[Dadface]

Hello monroelkjr considering the discussions that went on previously it is not surprising that some of us here(well me at least) thought that the whole thing was a joke.It now seems that it is for real and that you and your team are having a good crack at this extremely challenging and interesting venture.It would be brilliant if you could achieve orbit but even if not I am sure you will gain a lot from the task.Good luck with it.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

I'm going to create the coveted Jason-Rox prize. If you can launch a robot on the moon, have the robot live there for 3 months and start building a greenhouse, and then return the robot after the greenhouse is self-sustaining with a budget of under $1000. I will award them $100 000.

GOOD LUCK EVERYONE!

Personally I was hoping to launch some battlebots to Mars to throw down with the rovers and carve Richard C Hoaglands face into the landscape. What do I get for that?

 

[Dadface]

Be patient. As soon as the Nigerian princess gives Jason the $1,000,000.00 she promised him, you'll get your money.

My people in Nigeria have strict instructions not to send any money...Whoops, oh what a giveaway.

 

[monroelkjr]

So is that it? No interest?

Monroe

 

[turbo]

There is interest, Monroe, but we are all at a loss, not having been involved in this project. Our first concern was preventing some noobs from getting dangerous ideas about building rockets (controlled explosion) and getting hurt. I'd be interested in learning how your feasibility-studies were designed and conducted and how you determined that your fuel of choice has sufficient specific impulse to loft itself and all the hardware without tying up too much mass in fuel. That's why I suggested outboard ramjet boosters so you wouldn't have to loft oxidizers for those stages, just pure fuel.

 

[Redbelly98]

I'm definitely interested, but I know very little about building rockets. I do like hearing what somebody who is involved in a real project like this one has to say.

One question I have, what are the practical applications of sending a <20 gram package into orbit? Or would this be considered a stepping-stone project, with an ultimate goal of launching somewhat heavier payloads at low cost?

Regards,

Mark

 

[Astronuc]

For the most part, solid rockets burn from the center bore out to the casing rather than end to end. The idea is to have the propellant burn uniformly, radially and minimize heat load on the casing.

Liquid propellants are advantages because the oxider and fuel are mixed in a high temperature combustion chamber to maximize temperature. Head should be designed to have the fuel on the outside of the combustion chamber to keep it cool. LOX/H2 is usually rich in H2 to boost Isp.

Multistage solid rockets are very tricky.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

One question I have, what are the practical applications of sending a <20 gram package into orbit? Or would this be considered a stepping-stone project, with an ultimate goal of launching somewhat heavier payloads at low cost?

You can hardly call $100,000/kg low cost.

 

[Borek]

More like 175k$/kg.

 

[Redbelly98]

You can hardly call $100,000/kg low cost.

More like 175k$/kg.

Fair enough. But my question remains: what useful tasks can be done with a 20 gram orbiting satellite?

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

So is that it? No interest?

Monroe

Sorry if our joking has put you off. There are certainly several members who may be interested in the topic including but not limited to Turbo and Astro.

I think this thread got off on a bad foot. You may want to think about starting a new thread yourself in one of the engineering forums for more appropriate and worthwile responses. General Discussion tends towards lighthearted joking.

 

[monroelkjr]

I see that and hopefully that's over with for the most part. Just so we get the record straight all the money is spent in legal fees and for the property at the launch site. Once this is all done a typical launch cost us about $30.000 and the typical payload is a cubesat that weighs about 10lbs. We would love to use liquid fuel but the square cube law may prevent it. I'm not saying that’s impossible just not likely. We can make our own fuel grains (what rocket guy's call the propellant) they are hollow and burn from the inside out as stated. Our grains are in a finocyl configuration (shaped like a star) to provide more surface area than a "Bates" design that’s just a plain boar cylinder. This increases the specific Impulse and the rate of burn. I won’t boar you with nozzle design right now. Staging solid fuel rockets is very tricky, but not impractical. We do plan to develop liquid fuel for a little larger payload. Right now I'm making an Injector for a fella that’s testing a new pump design. We are making parts for Richard Nakka and the SS2S mission as well. Rick Maschek is one of the rocket guy’s doing 100Kft launches he’s on our team so there’s some of that here too. We have a meteorologist and a fella at NASA working with us as well.

M