I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

[signerror]

Were going to get the hydrogen peroxide from Walgreens.

They don't sell 90% H2O2. They sell 3%, which is utterly useless as a propellant.

 

[Iyafrady]

You mean this 3% stuff?
http://www.walgreens.com/store/productlist.jsp?CATID=302248"

I thought it was more concentrated than 3%.I just found out i can buy a drum of 50% hydrogen peroxide for 7.00 pesos per kg.That is $0.33 per lb!..The chemistry guys here said they can easily distill it to 90% concentration.Problem solved.

 

[signerror]

Take it from an engineer, it can be done. Last night, challenged by what Iyafrady is doing, I decided to compete myself. I asked my wife for $3500 and started building. The Delta IV is a mighty rocket 77 meters tall and capable of a top speed of 25000 miles/hour in the flats. It costs $140,000,000 to launch. In order to meet the cost requirement, I had to scale it down by a factor of 1/40000. And I succeeded. You need a microscope to see the fuel lines, but the thing is an exact replica at a height of .075 inch. Unfortunately, top speed is .62 mph, still short of what I require.

Your dimensions are all wrong. Your linear dimensions would fall by the cube root of 40,000, yielding a 52cm rocket; and your speed in a vacuum would remain unchanged (see above comments).

 

[signerror]

I thought it was more concentrated than 3%.I just found out i can buy a drum of 50% hydrogen peroxide for 7.00 pesos per kg.That is $0.33 per lb!..The chemistry guys here said they can easily distill it to 90% concentration.Problem solved.

Oh lord.

 

[Iyafrady]

90% hydrogen peroxide is a very strong oxidizer, and if it comes in contact with something flammable (like something as innocuous as a greasy hand-print) and starts to dissociate, the resulting heat will cause oxygen to gas off more rapidly, then boom! Because it is so hazardous, I would expect that there are permitting requirements for its purchase, storage, and use. Certainly, the UPS man isn't going to drop off the shipment. There are "chain of custody" requirements for hazardous materials. Expect shipping costs for small amounts to far exceed the cost of purchase. Also, once the kids blow up a garage, the insurance company will have every right to refuse to pay damages and then drop any related coverages.

Actually hydrogen peroxide is one of the safest propellants available.Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

 

[Gokul43201]

I thought it was more concentrated than 3%.I just found out i can buy a drum of 50% hydrogen peroxide for 7.00 pesos per kg.That is $0.33 per lb!..The chemistry guys here said they can easily distill it to 90% concentration.Problem solved.

But can they distill it to 500%?

Enthalpy of decomposition of peroxide is about 3kJ/g or 3MJ/kg.

Typical orbital velocity for a LEO is about 8km/sec. So an object in LEO needs an increase in specific KE of about 30MJ/kg (ignoring drag).

Without actually doing the integral, this seems to say that 100% peroxide doesn't have enough chemical energy in it to propel nothing more than its own weight into LEO, operating at 100% efficiency - forget about carrying a rocket along.

 

[signerror]

Actually hydrogen peroxide is one of the safest propellants available.Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

You're completely wrong. It is extremely corrosive and will eat right through skin. You are confusing it with extremely dilute, 3% pharmacy-grade peroxide (which is mostly water).

 

[signerror]

But can they distill it to 500%?

Enthalpy of decomposition of peroxide is about 3kJ/g or 3MJ/kg.

Typical orbital velocity for a LEO is about 8km/sec. So an object in LEO needs an increase in specific KE of about 30MJ/kg (ignoring drag).

Without actually doing the integral, this seems to say that 100% peroxide doesn't have enough chemical energy in it to propel nothing more than its own weight into LEO, operating at 100% efficiency - forget about carrying a rocket along.

This is invalid: you're forgetting that propellant is removed throughout the burn time of a rocket - the mass reaching LEO is much smaller than what is launched.

 

[Iyafrady]

Your completely wrong. It is extremely corrosive and will eat right through skin. You are confusing it with extremely dilute, 3% pharmacy-grade peroxide (which is mostly water).

Thats why were going to wear protective goggles and gloves.But its not flammable like gasoline!

 

[turbo]

Actually hydrogen peroxide is one of the safest propellants available.Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

You are dangerously misinformed and there may be gullible people reading this thread that could be killed or injured trying some of this stuff. Hydrogen peroxide is NOT a fuel. It is used as a propellant due to its ability to expand very rapidly. That said, concentrated hydrogen peroxide is very dangerous because it is has extra oxygen that can become un-bound easily and can spontaneously ignite and/or explode when it comes in contact with oxidizable materials (fuels) or dusts or metals or the salts of those metals. I hope you're just playing games and fantasizing about making such a rocket, because you don't have the requisite knowledge to handle this stuff safely.

http://cameochemicals.noaa.gov/chemical/19279

Reactivity Profile
HYDROGEN PEROXIDE, AQUEOUS SOLUTION, STABILIZED, WITH MORE THAN 60% HYDROGEN PEROXIDE is a powerful oxidizing agent. Will react or decompose violently and exothermically with readily oxidizable materials or alkaline substances. May decompose violently in contact with iron, copper, chromium, and most other metals or their salts, which act as catalysts for this reaction, and with ordinary dust (which frequently contain rust, also a catalyst for this reaction). Stabilization operates against such reactions, but does not eliminate their possibility. Contact with combustible materials may result in their spontaneous ignition. Solutions containing over 30% hydrogen peroxide can detonate when mixed with organic solvents (such as acetone, ethanol, glycerol); the violence of the explosion increases with increasing concentration of the hydrogen peroxide. Concentration of solutions of hydrogen peroxide under vacuum led to violent explosions when the concentration was sufficiently high (>90%) [Bretherick 2nd ed., 1979]. Mixtures of aqueous hydrogen peroxide with 1-phenyl-2-methyl propyl alcohol tend to explode if acidified with 70% sulfuric acid [Chem. Eng. News 45(43):73(1967); J, Org. Chem. 28:1893(1963)]. Hydrogen selenide and hydrogen peroxide undergo a very rapid reaction [Mellor 1:941(1946-1947)].

 

[Gokul43201]

This is invalid: you're forgetting that propellant is removed throughout the burn time of a rocket - the mass reaching LEO is much smaller than what is launched.

I'm not forgetting that. That's why I said, "without doing the integral" - that is to say that I'm eyeballing the solution to the differential equation. But even if you assume the final propellant mass is zero, and do the integral, will you be able to cover that order of magnitude shortfall? I doubt it. Include the extra energy needed to overcome drag and the extra mass from the rocket, and it looks even worse than that.

 

[signerror]

Thats why were going to wear protective goggles and gloves.But its not flammable like gasoline!

It is a huge fire hazard, because it is a powerful oxidizer.

Hydrogen peroxide must be transported in polyethylene, stainless steel or aluminium containers. When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with flammable substances, such as wood, paper, oil or cotton (cellulose), spontaneous ignition may occur. When hydrogen peroxide is mixed with organic matter, such as alcohols, acetone and other ketones, aldehydes and glycerol, heavy explosions may occur.
When hydrogen peroxide comes in contact with substances, such as iron, copper, chromium, lead, silver, manganese, sodium, potassium, magnesium, nickel, gold, platinum, metalloids, metal oxides or metal salts, this may result in powerful explosions. This is why hydrogen peroxide is usually transported in diluted form.

http://www.lenntech.com/water-disinfection/disinfectants-hydrogen-peroxide.htm

 

[Astronuc]

Actually hydrogen peroxide is one of the safest propellants available.Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

This claims seems to be contradicted by the following statement Agency for Toxic Substances and Disease Registry, Division of Toxicology
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/tfacts174.html

How can hydrogen peroxide affect my health?

Hydrogen peroxide can be toxic if ingested, inhaled, or by contact with the skin or eyes. Inhalation of household strength hydrogen peroxide (3%) can cause respiratory irritation. Exposure to household strength hydrogen peroxide can cause mild ocular irritation. Inhalation of vapors from concentrated (higher than 10%) solutions may result in severe pulmonary irritation.

Ingestion of dilute solutions of hydrogen peroxide may result in vomiting, mild gastrointestinal irritation, gastric distension, and on rare occasions, gastrointestinal erosions or embolism (blockage of blood vessels by air bubbles). Ingestion of solutions of 10-20% strength produces similar symptoms, but exposed tissues may also be burned. Ingestion of even more concentrated solutions, in addition to the above, may also induce rapid loss of consciousness followed by respiratory paralysis.

Eye exposure to 3% hydrogen peroxide may result in pain and irritation, but severe injury is rare. More concentrated solution may result in ulceration or perforation of the cornea. Skin contact can cause irritation and temporary bleaching of the skin and hair. Contact with concentrated solutions may cause severe skin burns with blisters.

This same site also mentions, "Hydrogen peroxide is unstable, decomposing readily to oxygen and water with release of heat. Although nonflammable, it is a powerful oxidizing agent that can cause spontaneous combustion when it comes in contact with organic material."

I'm thinking contestant for 2009 Darwin Award here.

 

[Jimmy Snyder]

The chemistry guys here said they can easily distill it to 90% concentration.

Above roughly 70% concentrations, hydrogen peroxide can give off vapor that can detonate above 70 °C (158 °F) at normal atmospheric pressure.This can then cause a boiling liquid expanding vapor explosion (BLEVE) of the remaining liquid. Distillation of hydrogen peroxide at normal pressures is thus highly dangerous.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_peroxide"
You would need to get a special kind of still. How much will that set you back? $15,800?

 

[signerror]

I'm not forgetting that. That's why I said, "without doing the integral" - that is to say that I'm eyeballing it. But even if you assume the final propellant mass is zero, and do the integral, will you be able to cover that order of magnitude shortfall? I doubt it. Include the extra energy needed to overcome drag and the extra mass from the rocket, and it looks even worse than that.

Huh? Ignoring air resistance, the integral diverges to infinity as the mass ratio goes to zero. With enough stages, you could launch a rocket to any orbit using any propellant.

 

[Borek]

Its non volatile, non explosive, non inflammable and non toxic product.Its pretty much oxygenated water dude.The most dangerous thing about it is a little bit irritating to the eyes.Its stability also increases with concentration, so its safer to store and transport than gasoline.

You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.

 

[lisab]

You may feel like you are already orbiting the Earth, just in too small pieces to be a serious contestant.

 

[Gokul43201]

Huh? Ignoring air resistance, the integral diverges to infinity as the mass ratio goes to zero. With enough stages, you could launch a rocket to any orbit using any propellant.

Oops, that's right. So, all we can say is that ignoring drag and inefficiency in the engine, this sets an upper bound on the mass ratio that is smaller than 10%. If you invert that, it's over 90% fuel - and this number assumes the fuel has no mass, despite it taking up over 90% of the total mass. But that already looks like the typical value for a single stage rocket.

 

[Astronuc]

Read page 2 of
Hydrogen Peroxide for Propulsion and Power Applications: A Swift Perspective
http://articles.adsabs.harvard.edu//full/2004ESASP.557E...1R/0000001.002.html

MSDS for Rocket Grade HP - >70%
http://msds.fmc.com/msds/100000010535-MSDS_US-E.pdf

http://www.fmcchemicals.com/Products/HydrogenPeroxide/PropulsionGrade/tabid/1506/Default.aspx - see the safety presentation regarding handling and storage.

 

[redargon]

This is really fun chatting and getting everyone worked up, but I'm still a little surprised that the OP hasn't been warned (or banned) for trolling yet, especially considering his posts in this and other threads. He's really just making fun of this forum and its members and, although some of the resulting discussions (between experienced pfers) is interesting, I feel that it is somewhat degrading.

 

[monroelkjr]

Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus

 

[Redbelly98]

Is this a live thread?

Monroe
N-Prize Team Prometheus

From what I've read here, no, it does not appear to be a serious thread.

 

[monroelkjr]

Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe

 

[turbo]

Welcome, Monroe. If you want to use the forum's notation tools, you can put [ sub ] and [ /sub ] (without spaces) tags around the parts you want to show up as subscripts like I_sp It might save confusion for those who are not familiar with the term specific impulse.

 

[monroelkjr]

T-1
Thanks! And hey that’s cool I wish the forum on the Space Fellowship had that! So where are we at here? Peroxide is a safe fuel as far a rocket fuel goes. You don’t need 90% to experiment with. You can distill 30% by freezing to 70% and that’s good for experiments. Of course be safe, duh. It is a strong Oxidizer! But this is a physics forum right? Hey if you kill yourself that’s not my fault. A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe

 

[Redbelly98]

Humm. There is some interesting chat it appears? The peroxide route is a little off because of the low ISP. I'm willing to discuss this topic if anyones interested. We are a team entered in the N-Prize. www.teamprometheus.org

Monroe

Welcome to PF Monroe

It's a pretty good bet that people here would welcome discussion by a legit N-Prize contestant.

Since you're in a competition, how much are you willing to divulge about your team's effort?

 

[Astronuc]

The points being made by critics of the OP is that the OP lacks credibility as evidenced by tossing out things like "Were going to get the hydrogen peroxide from Walgreens." and the dismissive comments as to hazard posed by Rocket Grade H₂O₂. I doubt any team will put a nano-satellite in orbit for less than $3500, or £999.99, which is actually about $1467.00 at today's exchange rate.

The cost of the launch, but not ground facilities, must fall within a budget of £999.99. Entrants for the RV Prize may exceed this budget, but must demonstrate recovery of hardware such that the per-launch cost remains within £999.99.

So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

Call me skeptical.

http://www.n-prize.com/
http://spacefellowship.com/Forum/viewforum.php?f=52

The prizes will be awarded to the first persons or groups to put into orbit around the Earth a satellite with a mass of between 9.99 and 19.99 grams, and to prove that it has completed at least 9 orbits.

 

[turbo]

A hybrid Peroxide rocket could make orbit (Bi-propellant) with say kerosene. If you don’t understand how to perform experiments with the scientific method don’t bother just shoot yourself and get it over with or find another hobby. I encourage the younger fellows and newbie’s to experiment but first learn safety and how to take notes (at least we can figure out what killed you). Have fun!

Monroe

Hey, Monroe, have you looked into the possibility of a central solid-fuel booster flanked by a couple of outboard solid-fuel ramjet boosters? If you could get to adequate ram velocities using a mix of solid fuel and oxidizer in the main booster and then trigger the ramjets, it would save you a lot of weight not to have to carry oxidizer for the ramjets (as long as the craft is still in a dense-enough atmosphere to supply the oxygen.) Just a thought.

 

[monroelkjr]

Red
Thanks! Well, considering the effort required to actually accomplish something like this. I can divulge quite a bit. I will help out other guy's that are interested and give information on were to start were to look and questions that have non-hypothetical answers. I don't know everything about anything so you know.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

We will permit serious discussion, just not the silliness.

So, Monroe, is this you with the rocket?
http://sandiegospace.org/2009/01/18/n-prize-teams-make-progress/

Maybe BobG can track and verify the 9 orbits for each team. For a price.