I am a contestant for the M-Prize challenge

[monroelkjr]

Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

T-1
One of the teams (Nebula) is using that method. We are solid fuel guys. And we are high altitude launch guys (20 miles).

Aeronuc
No, that’s not me that’s Basil Attal. The team XO.

There is a TV News interview and a radio broadcast in the media section of the website as well as links to other news about the team. We were secluded to speak at the Space Access conference this year however I could not make it.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc
I understand the skepticism! I laughed the first time I saw the N-Prize. However I'm a great scrounger and I'm also a machinist. If you scrounge well and can make your own fuel and know enough about it, it is possible. Items that are donated and such (raw materials) don't count against you. It could be done for nothing except your time if you had enough of it and nothing better to do. Anyway the exchange rate was locked in at $2000 USD. Also any part of the mission that can be recovered or reused also does not count. I'm not saying it's going to be easy I already know that’s not true. Or cheap either we have invested about $60.000 so far. We are not looking for investor's because it's to hard to convince anyone to invest. We are pretty much on our own.

Monroe

I know of several folks who do high altitude rocketry, I would take those folks seriously if they go after this. I very skeptical of anyone starting from scratch, and really don't know what they are doing. I just hope no one injures/harms themselves or others.

Monroe, can you say anything abou the legal requirements regarding propellant and permissions to launch? I imagine there are safety issues considering one would be lauching through a nation's airspace, and one would not want to shootdown a commerical, private or military aircraft, although the odds of a collision are probably very low.

Also, with regard to the 9.99 - 19.99 gm payload - I'm thinking more space debris here. I don't see anything recoverable for those going for re-entry. Better shield it with HfC or TaC. Not much room for a parachute, eh?

 

[Iyafrady]

Hi monroe, this is Iyafrady of team capricorn from the south western US.Do you know how many teams there are in total currently?

We are just beginning the development process at my university and we have several people that are willing to help.

 

[Dadface]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?

 

[signerror]

Engineers:

An LEO launch is not a ballistic trajectory. How do you get a 20-gram rocket to control itself? How does it rotate? How does it even know which way it's oriented?

How do you fit a long range radio transmitter, with a power supply, in those same 20 grams?

How do you get the incredible delta-V required without multiple rocket stages? (Has any amateur rocket ever had a staged design?)

How do you expect to vastly outperform every amateur rocket in history, with the same technology and a fraction of the budget? Doesn't prior experience suggest the scale of this problem is wildly greater than what you plan?

 

[signerror]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.

No, I think they mean what they say.

Surely it's impossible?

Very nearly.

http://www.n-prize.com/

It's the enthusiasts who have unwarranted optimism.

 

[Astronuc]

Interestingly, AIAA has no position statement on the N-Prize.

 

[Iyafrady]

I still think it's a hoax started by the people who set the task.Even if the team members had all of the necessary expertise I cannot imagine that the task can be achieved within the set budget and time no matter how much stuff is scrounged.Undoubtedly it can be a brilliant educational exercise but my main concern is about safety issues some of which have been expressed here.In this regard I think it should be set as a paper exercise and I also think that the task setters are being irresponsible.What next...build an A bomb with a budget of £200?

A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!

 

[signerror]

N-Prize competitors. I'd like to see a simple back-of-the-envelope design as proof of principle, that this actually feasible. Don't reveal any of your secrets: just show us that the basic principle is sound, that what appear to be ridiculous constraints can in fact be satisfied, and simultaneously.

 

[monroelkjr]

Astronuc
Very valid points you have there. I'll do my best to answer them for you.

Legal: 90% of our effort so far has been in the legal issues.

1) Propellant
ATF Class 4 low explosive permit and storage magazines as well as mobile transport magazines.

2) DOT Hazardous materials transport certifications

3) FAA experimental launch permit and or wavers

4) FCC satellite communications waver

5) DOD flight plan and wavers as well as mission abort certifications

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)

We had to clear a launch site and provide insurance as well. It's a long story you can dig up at the N-Prize Google group. This is a very simplified list but you get the just of it.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe

 

[Astronuc]

Astronuc

6) Export license. Required to export from the US into space (believe it!)

I believe it. It goes outside the borders and one doesn't know where it will land.

There are links to the legal issues on our site if you need more details than that. You don't have to worry too much about our satellite contributing to space junk it won't orbit long enough to worry about that.

Monroe

Thanks. I just want the OP to appreciate the legal matters involved.

I think the drag at 100 km will certainly limit the number of orbits, especially for 20 g mass.

 

[Dadface]

A HW problem??..that is insulting mankind!

You make me laugh Iyafrady...enormous chuckles and belly rumbles in abundance.

 

[monroelkjr]

Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe

 

[signerror]

Here's one idea:

The 30.5 meter (100 foot) diameter balloon was made of 0.127 mm (0.005 inch) thick metalized Mylar polyester film and was successfully used to redirect transcontinental and intercontinental telephone, radio, and television signals.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Echo_satellite

Maybe you could built a satelloon and track it passively by its microwave reflectivity (radar). A back-of-the-envelope suggests a maximum size of ~20cm, to keep within the weight limit. Not sure if that is detectable.

 

[monroelkjr]

Signerror
A simple back-of-the-envelope design. That would be nice. Check out the Team Wiki and the N-Prize document there. I will try to awnser questions for you guys that's the best I can do. You guys are a lively bunch that's cool. I'm glad to meet you all. I'm pretty busy at the moment and will do the best I can to get back to you.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, our satellite for the prize is a 1-meter square maylar cube. Ejected from our tracking satellite that helps us locate the cubesat not to confuse this with a 10cm square "cubesat" design that is pretty common. We intend to launch regular cubesats after the N-Prize mission.

Monroe

 

[Iyafrady]

Iyafrady

You go boy! File and get your team up there! You are in for a lot of fun. Don't let anyone stop you. This is the field to be in right now trust me and you will learn a ton. Me personally it has changed my whole life.

Monroe

Thanks man!...Funny how this is the first encouraging post in a 10 page thread.

 

[Borek]

10 page thread.

Nine.

 

[monroelkjr]

Nine is the magic # for the N-Prize :)

Monroe

 

[Iyafrady]

Nine.

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

 

[monroelkjr]

Iyafrady
Hey, If your really going to compete in the N-Prize. Get used to it :)

Monroe

 

[Ivan Seeking]

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

Perhaps you would happier somewhere else.

 

[turbo]

still pretty pathetic considering this is a science forum.

Sorry, but you have been throwing out wild claims including you can achieve orbit with a a hydrogen peroxide thruster (no fuel to oxidize), that hydrogen peroxide is stable and safe to use (no appreciation of the hazards of storing/handling strong oxidizers in the presence of catalyzing metals or combustible materials), and that you could get your hydrogen peroxide from a discount store and have it distilled by the guys in the chemistry department. Really!

When I was a process chemist in a pulp mill, we made our own chlorine dioxide on-site using (in part) Sodium Chlorate. Nobody that hooked up rail-cars, valved the chlorate to the storage tank or Rapson generator, or could be exposed to that oxidizer was allowed to be in the work area unless they were fully suited up, and were hosed down to remove residual chlorate before taking off the protective clothing. There were safety showers and full-immersion dunk tanks everywhere in that area. Twice a year, we were treated to a demonstration of what would happen to a scarecrow with cloth shirt and pants and leather shoes and gloves that had been wetted with chlorate solution and dried. The chief of security would flick a cigarette toward the dummy, and if you were close (maybe 10-15' or so), you'd have to turn away to avoid the worst of the heat. Your poor understanding or the dangers of strong oxidants will not save you should you manage to secure some concentrated hydrogen peroxide. Wood, paper, your clothing, and a wide variety of metals, salts, and corrosion products can all react energetically (even explosively) with that liquid.

Follow some of the links that we have given you in these "negative" posts so you will understand the dangers of working with this stuff. I don't believe that you are actively pursuing this project, especially since you haven't studied the MSDS info for your propellant of choice. The fact that your "specialist" in orbital mechanics has been grounded and can't use his computer is not inspiring, either.

 

[monroelkjr]

Yep, rockets as a hobby can kill you and ruin it for everyone elce as well. Thats why I stress the scientific method and note taking. But it's pretty fair the ATF will get you if you don't watch out! You have to know what you are doing and prove it.

Monroe

 

[monroelkjr]

Signerror
I just saw the other questions you asked and they are very good ones also. The rocket is launched from @100.000ft (20 miles) this first stage has a 4 motor cluster that fires 2 at a time for 2 stages there are 2 boosters so there are 4 stages there follow? The rocket spins at @300 RPM. There is a horizon sensor that senses the apogee of the rocket and fires the fifth stage; the sensors look out at a 12 degree angle. The satellite is deployed and is spin stabilized and has front facing booster. When the satellite reaches the other side of the world this motor will be facing in the right direction and boost the satellite into a circular orbit. This satellite weighs about 3 pounds and has tracking and telemetry. The N-Prize sat. Is folded up in this small package and is deployed from it. The tracking signal from the main satellite allows us to locate the passive N-Prize satellite. However that’s just for us the haystack radar facility will have no problem locating it.

Monroe

 

[Dadface]

Monroe to realize this challenge you must remain within budget so one small question...Have you estimated the total transport costs?

 

[misgfool]

So the cost of the vehicle, payload and fuel should be less than ~$1500.

If ground structures are not in the costs, I think that price could be reached with a space elevator type solution.

 

[monroelkjr]

Dadface
The total estimated cost is @$250.000 there are no transport cost the rocket is built in a hanger on site. Don't worry about the rocket cost if you get sponcers for the materials or donations. You just have to prove where you got everything. Hey if you don't want to do it you won't be able too that's for sure. There are ways to do it if you really want to. Otherwise we would'nt be doing it. You have to look into it farther and ask the questions about cost. If you just gloss over the rules you won't get it. Thats all I can say, I've not said this before and I'm not saying it again. So there you go. I don't have any special ties to the prize that help us I've just asked the right questions. The legal issues are the problem. However if you follow the rules and do what's required legaly that can be done as well. It has taken me 8 months of everyday working on the legal issues to get to this point. We are now ready to start building.

Monroe

 

[maze]

Would it be feasible to basically detonate a bomb underneath a very small payload, accelerating it to escape velocity instantly and launching it into orbit? Or perhaps place the explosive underneath a collection of many small payloads, with the hope that at least one of them makes it?