Imaginary Numbers/Mesh Analysis

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the application of mesh analysis in circuits involving imaginary numbers, specifically focusing on the use of impedance and reactance in solving circuit equations. Participants explore methods for simplifying calculations and the potential use of software tools for solving complex equations.

Discussion Character

  • Homework-related
  • Mathematical reasoning
  • Debate/contested

Main Points Raised

  • One participant presents a set of KVL equations and expresses confusion about how to proceed with solving for multiple variables, particularly regarding the use of complex conjugates.
  • Another participant suggests converting rectangular forms to phasor forms to simplify calculations, recalling a classroom discussion on the convenience of different forms for addition and multiplication.
  • A participant advises labeling circuit components with their respective values rather than using numerical values directly to avoid potential errors.
  • Revised KVL equations are provided, with participants questioning whether converting to polar coordinates would be beneficial for solving the equations.
  • There is a discussion about defining the polar form of complex numbers, specifically regarding the conversion of j2 into polar coordinates.
  • One participant mentions using the Laplace transform to avoid dealing with complex quantities in KCL or KVL, suggesting this method is preferred among professional electrical engineers.
  • Another participant confirms they were able to solve the problem but questions if there are shortcuts to avoid lengthy calculations.
  • There is a disagreement on whether converting values to polar coordinates is necessary, with one participant arguing against it for addition and subtraction of terms.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants express differing opinions on the best approach to solving the circuit equations, with some advocating for the use of polar coordinates and others suggesting that it may not be necessary. The discussion remains unresolved regarding the most efficient method to handle the calculations.

Contextual Notes

Participants highlight the complexity of the circuit and the potential for errors when working with multiple variables and complex numbers. There are also references to the limitations of manual calculations and the advantages of using software tools.

dwn
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Homework Statement



Image Attached

Homework Equations



Impedance/Reactance
Mesh Analysis

The Attempt at a Solution



KVL
-V + 2I1 + 4.7(I1 - I2) + j2(I1 - I3) = 0
4.7(I2 - I1) - j0.056(I2) + 2(I2 - I3) = 0
j2(I3 - I1) + 2(I3 - I2) + I3 = 0

(4.7 + j2)I1 - 4.7I2 - j2(I3) = 4V
4.7(I2-I1) - j0.056(I2) + 2(I2 - I3) = 0
-j2(I1) - 2I2 + (3 - j2)I3 = 0

Solve the second and third equation for I2 and I3, respectively.
I2 = (4.7I1 + 2I3)/(6.7 - j0.056)
I3 = (2(I2) + j2(I1)) / (3 - j2)

Substitute I3 into I2, in order to eliminate one of the variables.

(4.7I1 + 2(2I2 + j2(I1)/(3 - j2)) / (6.7 - j0.056)

This is where things get a little confusing for me, and I'm not sure how to proceed. I was going to multiply by the conjugate in order to simplify the equation, but am I able to do this with 2 variables (I1 and I2)?? I did it for the equation I3.

Also, is it possible to calculate this within Matlab? I know how to reduce linear equation (rref), but not sure how to account for the imaginary values (j) and the multiple currents (I1, I2, and I3). Any tips please? Hope it is easy to follow. Thanks so much!
 

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Would I be better off converting the rectangular form to phasor form to make the calculation easier? I remember in class our professor mentioned addition and subtraction rectangular is convenient and polar when using multiplication and division.
 
First thing you do is label the componrnts R1, R2, R3, L and C. Don't work in numbers. You lose dimensional information and you're almost sure to make a math error.

Repost your KVL equations.
 
ω = 20
L = jwL = j2
C = -j/(wL) = -j0.056

Revised KVL
R1 = 2 R2 = 4.7 R3 = 2 R4 = 1

-V + (R1 * I1) + R2(I1 - I2) + L(I1 - I3) = 0
R2(I2 - I1) + CI2 + R3(I2 - I3) = 0
L(I3 - I1) + R3(I3 - I2) + I3*R4 = 0
==================================
I1((R1+R2) + L) - (R2*I2) - LI3 = V
(-R2*I1) + I2((R1+R2) + C) - 2I3 = 0
(-L*I1) - RI2 + I3((R3 +R4)+L) = 0
==================================
I1(6.7 + j2) - 4.7I2 - j2(I3) = 4∠0°
-4.7I1 + I2(6.7 - j0.056) - 2I3 = 0
-j2I1 - 2I2 + I3(3+j2) = 0

Is it best to convert these values to polar coordinates and then solve?
 
Last edited:
when converting j2 of the first equation into polar coordinates..specifically tan^-1(2/0). Do we define this as: 0∠90° ?
ThanksEDIT

I was able to solve the problem...but there must be a better way? Is there a shortcut to avoid "plugging and chugging"?
 
Last edited:
dwn said:
when converting j2 of the first equation into polar coordinates..specifically tan^-1(2/0). Do we define this as: 0∠90° ?
Thanks

To tell you the truth I use s=jw so there are no complex quantities involved in KCL or KVL or (what I use) sum of currents at each independent junction = 0 which is almost KVL. But that's because I'm familiar with the Laplace transform. Professional EE's all do that.
EDIT

I was able to solve the problem...but there must be a better way? Is there a shortcut to avoid "plugging and chugging"?

This is a pretty complex circuit so I'd say you did it the best way. Don't forget to use software for solving boring simultaneous equations. Again, with s=jw you don't have to worry about taking complex conjugates etc.
 
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dwn said:
ω = 20
L = jwL = j2
C = -j/(wL) = -j0.056

Revised KVL
R1 = 2 R2 = 4.7 R3 = 2 R4 = 1

-V + (R1 * I1) + R2(I1 - I2) + L(I1 - I3) = 0
R2(I2 - I1) + CI2 + R3(I2 - I3) = 0
L(I3 - I1) + R3(I3 - I2) + I3*R4 = 0
==================================
I1((R1+R2) + L) - (R2*I2) - LI3 = V
(-R2*I1) + I2((R1+R2) + C) - 2I3 = 0
(-L*I1) - RI2 + I3((R3 +R4)+L) = 0
==================================
I1(6.7 + j2) - 4.7I2 - j2(I3) = 4∠0°
-4.7I1 + I2(6.7 - j0.056) - 2I3 = 0
-j2I1 - 2I2 + I3(3+j2) = 0

Is it best to convert these values to polar coordinates and then solve?

Definitely not. You're adding and subtacting terms.
 

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