Impedance of free space/wave impedance

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Discussion Overview

The discussion revolves around the concept of impedance in free space and its comparison with other materials, particularly focusing on the implications of impedance for electromagnetic waves. Participants explore the definitions, relationships to resistance, and the role of refractive index in various materials, including ferrites.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory
  • Technical explanation
  • Debate/contested
  • Conceptual clarification

Main Points Raised

  • Some participants propose that free space has the greatest impedance among materials, suggesting it offers significant opposition to electromagnetic waves, although the meaning of impedance in this context is questioned.
  • Others argue that impedance should not be viewed as opposition but rather as the natural ratio of electric to magnetic fields in a medium, indicating a more nuanced understanding of wave behavior.
  • Participants discuss the relationship between impedance and resistance, noting that impedance is a complex quantity in the frequency domain, while resistance is a real-valued quantity.
  • A participant mentions that materials with high permeability but lower permittivity can have higher impedance than free space, prompting requests for examples of such materials.
  • Ferrites are introduced as materials where permeability can be significantly greater than permittivity, raising questions about their refractive index and how it relates to impedance.
  • There is a discussion about the complex nature of refractive index in absorbing materials, with references to the extinction coefficient and its relevance to impedance calculations.
  • Some participants express understanding of the concepts discussed, while others seek clarification on the definitions and relationships involved.

Areas of Agreement / Disagreement

Participants do not reach a consensus on the implications of impedance in free space versus other materials, with multiple competing views on how to interpret impedance and its relationship to wave behavior and material properties.

Contextual Notes

The discussion includes various assumptions about the definitions of impedance, refractive index, and the conditions under which these concepts apply, particularly in the context of different materials and their electromagnetic properties.

fluidistic
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If I'm not wrong, empty space (vacuum) has the greatest impedance amongst any material. Because \eta = \frac{1}{n} \sqrt {\frac{\mu _0}{\epsilon}} if I'm not wrong and n=1 (smallest value possible) for free space. What does this mean that free space has a big impedance? It makes the greatest opposition to electromagnetic waves? I'm not getting the meaning of impedance in this case.
P.S.: I've searched in wikipedia, also wave impedance but didn't find any explanation about the meaning of it.
 
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It is not always true. In a material with high mu but not very high epsilon, the impedance would be much higher.

Don't think of it as opposition, that's not correct. Think of it like this: the natural ratio of electric to magnetic fields for waves in that medium is the impedance. It's not a statement about the difficulty of the waves travels.
 
Antiphon said:
It is not always true. In a material with high mu but not very high epsilon, the impedance would be much higher.
Ok I trust you, although I've some doubt since n would/could be big in those materials? I'd appreciate if you have the name of at least 1 material whose impedance is greater than free space; if you don't, no need to lose your time searching this for me, I'll trust you anyway.
Don't think of it as opposition, that's not correct. Think of it like this: the natural ratio of electric to magnetic fields for waves in that medium is the impedance. It's not a statement about the difficulty of the waves travels.
Ah ok, so I should only look at the mathematical definition. I wonder why they called this "impedance".
Thanks for your explanation.
 
Impedance is a close cousin to resistance. The names are motivated by the same concepts but impedance is a frequency domain quantity and is complex (R+iX) where the real part is the resistance.
 
Antiphon said:
Impedance is a close cousin to resistance. The names are motivated by the same concepts but impedance is a frequency domain quantity and is complex (R+iX) where the real part is the resistance.
Ok so there's definitely a relation with the electrical impedance (which I was aware of). It's not obvious to me from the definition of the free space impedance.
 
It is the same concept (and units) except for the definition. In a circuit it's the ratio of V to I at a point in a circuit. In the full field problem it's the ratio of certain components of the E and H fields.

A ferrite is an insulating material where mu can be hundreds of times greater than epsilon. These are used as cores in high frequency coils in circuits.
 
Antiphon said:
It is the same concept (and units) except for the definition. In a circuit it's the ratio of V to I at a point in a circuit. In the full field problem it's the ratio of certain components of the E and H fields.

A ferrite is an insulating material where mu can be hundreds of times greater than epsilon. These are used as cores in high frequency coils in circuits.

Thanks once again for this reply.
Does it has any sense to talk about a refractive index in ferrite? I know light gets absorbed (and thus refracted?)/mostly reflected in metals. Although ferrite is a composed material, I think that some light can pass through the ferrite a small distance.
Anyway the refractive index appears in the definition of the impedance (in my class notes, but I didn't find it in wikipedia), hence my question.
 
fluidistic said:
Thanks once again for this reply.
Does it has any sense to talk about a refractive index in ferrite? I know light gets absorbed (and thus refracted?)/mostly reflected in metals. Although ferrite is a composed material, I think that some light can pass through the ferrite a small distance.
Anyway the refractive index appears in the definition of the impedance (in my class notes, but I didn't find it in wikipedia), hence my question.

Refractive index is also a complex quantity:

\tilde{n}=n + ik

where n is the real part of the refractive index (the "normal" one that we use e.g. in Snell's law), and k is the extinction coefficient, which becomes important when the material is absorbing radiation. This can be resonant absorption, as in a dielectric, or conduction band absorption, as in a semi-conducting or conducting material.

So yes, ferrite has an index of refraction, but the complex index is large, because it is absorbing. With regards to the wave impedance expression, I am fairly sure it is only the real part of the index of refraction that enters in, since that expression is for perfect dielectrics (so it would make sense to apply it to ferrite anyway).
 
It is best defined in terms of complex epsilon and mu. The index of refraction is an incomplete description of a medium.
 
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Ok thanks to both, I get it. Very interesting.
 

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