News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

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The Iraqi government is facing imminent collapse under insurgent pressure, with ISIS reportedly taking control of Mosul. The U.S. has refused military aid to Iraq, primarily to avoid appearing to support Prime Minister al-Maliki, whose Shiite leadership could be seen as backing Iran. Concerns are rising that if insurgents gain control of Baghdad, it could lead to increased conflict with Iran. The Iraqi army, despite being well-trained and outnumbering ISIS, has shown reluctance to engage, leaving military equipment behind in their retreat. The situation is evolving into a civil war, raising fears of broader regional instability and the potential resurgence of terrorism globally.
  • #1,001
Bystander said:
Egypt? Libya?

jim hardy said:
Egypt, Libyia, Ukraine,

In what way did the US overthrow Mubarak's government? I've been hearing this argument a lot as of late and it always puzzles me. I remember the 18 days of the revolution as if they were yesterday. The US was pretty much the last player to give up on Mubarak, when it was almost irrelevant at that point.

I agree with Vanadium regarding this point. Any claim of US-overthrew-the-government post Iraq 2003 is IMO a stretch.

mheslep said:
It's also important to think back about what early intervention could have done in Syria. The US/NATO could have destroyed all of Assad's air power at the beginning of the civil war, air power with which he bombed civilians, well before the Russians were involved.

Well said!

I've been repeating that since 2012 to the point that I feel like a broken record.

I get that most Americans now see Iraq was a disaster (I agree) and it appears there's currently a strong anti-intervention sentiment. But if Iraq's lesson was that well learned, I hope that after almost half a million dead in Syria there's another lesson to be learned; namely that non-intervention can also come at a great human cost.
 
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  • #1,002
HossamCFD said:
...hope that after almost half a million dead in Syria there's another lesson to be learned; namely that non-intervention can also come at a great human cost.

Difficult to learn when there is so much distortion of the history. Instead of confronting the consequences of non intervention, much effort goes into blaming the US for all that troubles the world, into inventing interventions that never occurred. Or wrenching priorities loose from all foundation. Look at a US candidate for President who does not know or much care what Aleppo is or where. Look at another who is most concerned about "implicit bias" in everyone and the slightest harm from climate change.
 
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  • #1,003
Isis Leader Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi Reportedly Poisoned
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/3143f21a-ea15-3e64-b20c-30230a2cad2b/ss_isis-leader-abu-bakr.html
ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is at death’s door after being poisoned by a mystery assassin in Iraq, it has been reported. Three other senior jihadis were also afflicted by the toxin in Al-Ba’aj, southwest of Mosul – Islamic State’s biggest city in Iraq. The four have reportedly been rushed for treatment at a secret location. FARS, an Iranian news agency, say that ISIS is now arresting several suspects to find out who has struck a blow at the terror group’s self-proclaimed ‘Caliph’.
If anyone ever deserved it, he does.
 
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  • #1,004
HossamCFD said:
In what way did the US overthrow Mubarak's government? I've been hearing this argument a lot as of late and it always puzzles me. I remember the 18 days of the revolution as if they were yesterday. The US was pretty much the last player to give up on Mubarak, when it was almost irrelevant at that point.
If you were there you have it first hand . Do you know Wael Ghonim ?

My take on events from six thousand miles away is we roused up an excitable segment of the population. That's what State Department's Alliance of Youth Movements does.

I'd like to hear your observations.
 
  • #1,005
jim hardy said:
Do you know Wael Ghonim ?

Every Egyptian knows Wael Ghoneim. I've never met him in person but we had a few online exchanges and he follows me on Quora (which I only joined after it acquired Parlio, a political and social network founded by Wael).

jim hardy said:
My take on events from six thousand miles away is we roused up an excitable segment of the population.

I'm very familiar with this narrative. But if I'm being perfectly honest, this does strike as slightly self-centric. Many people fought for this over many years, and hundreds paid the ultimate price in result. We obviously failed, but it is the youths of Egypt who deserve the credit for this failed revolution, rather than blame it on the US.

jim hardy said:
I'd like to hear your observations.

Thank you for the interest. I feel like I can only present how organic the uprising was, as opposed to being orchestrated/incited by the US, through a narration of how the events unfolded. But there is no way I can narrate this episode in a concise way. I'll do my best, but I'll understand if the moderators chose to remove this as off-topic.

Political dissent began to surface with the Kefaya (Egyptian Arabic for "enough") movement, which began in 2005 as a reaction to the perceived attempts of preparing Mubarak's son Gamal to succeed him. They organised protests and I remember being absolutely astonished that they had the courage to explicitly and publicly speak against Mubarak (rather than criticize the cabinet, which was somehow normal). Protests normally consisted of about 200 activists chanting on the stairs of some public building surrounded by more than a thousand policemen, and before too long half of them would be 'welcomed' in jail. This routine changed on April 6th 2008 when a group of activists (some of them were from Kefaya) transformed a planned workers strike in El-Mahala to a national event with the help of the now-widespread social media. Millions of people saw the video of protesters stepping on a massive portrait of Mubarak. This was the start of the April 6 Youth Movement which has been very influential ever since. With the help of Facebook, dissent became commonplace and for the first time you could see normal people speaking out against Mubarak on your way to work.

El-Baradei came back to Egypt around 2010 and started a campaign for democratic reform. He was a high enough profile (as well as the Nobel peace prize, he was awarded the Order of the Nile, Egypt's highest state honour) that he was safe from persecution from the government. He became the umbrella under which all opposition gathered (including Kefaya and April 6).

In the same year, a young man called Khaled Saeed was beaten to death in a police station in Alexandria. A photo of his corpse went viral and it almost immediately became a symbol of the regime's oppression. Massive silent protests were organised (I went to one of them in Alexandria and it stretched for a few kilometres). Wael Ghoneim was the (then anonymous) founder of a Facebook page called "We are all Khaled Saeed" which had millions of followers and had a phenomenal levels of participation.

And then Tunisia happened...

Egyptians were following closely as Ben Ali fled Tunisia on the 14th of January 2011. Online groups suggested to plan protests only 11 days later on the 25th (as a spit in the face of the regime since the 25th of January is Egypt's national police day) instead of the usual April 6th. The idea got a lot of support and thousands of people took to the streets in Alexandria were I lived. I went home and turned on the TV and saw reports of similar protests in Suez and Cairo. Around 30.000 protesters occupied Tahrir square in Cairo and were then dispersed violently later.

Washington's reaction came that night when Secretary Clinton issued a statement saying the administration sees no reason to believe that the Egyptian government is unstable (I still remember more or less the exact words).

The Egyptian government shut down the internet and all cell phone communications in the hope that people won't be able organise themselves. This backfired badly. On Friday the 28th the thousands became millions in the streets. Hundreds were shot dead but the police quickly ran out of ammunition and disappeared from the streets. The protests became a full scale revolution and instead of political reform, people were demanding the immediate toppling of Mubarak. The army descended to the streets to protect public buildings as the police department evaporated, but did not clash with the protesters.

Many young people, including myself, were frustrated by the vague and overly cautious US stance. This was rectified on February 1st when Obama issued a statement saying that only the Egyptian people can determine their leaders. The clashes on the streets would continue until February 11 when Mubarak finally resigned.

These are the events as I lived them. I don't see how America would've "roused up" the rebellion. Yes, the US could've stood up for Mubarak a bit longer and made it more difficult for us (which would've costed many more lives), but I don't think the administration should be blamed for not doing so. It was clear for any keen observer that Mubarak is on the way out, and it was just a question of how many more lives will be spent.
 
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  • #1,006
HossamCFD said:
We obviously failed, but it is the youths of Egypt who deserve the credit for this failed revolution, rather than blame it on the US.

I thank you for taking the time to relate the view from up close.
If we both get banned i owe you one... Mentors please take it out on me , i asked the question.

HossamCFD said:
I'm very familiar with this narrative. But if I'm being perfectly honest, this does strike as slightly self-centric.
We flatter ourselves ? That could be.

I'm reading up on those links you included.

April 6 Youth Movement was founded by one Srdja Popovic
who's made the rounds in US university circles
.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srđa_Popović_(activist)
Waging Nonviolence
In 2009, Popovic became a founding member of the board of advisers of Waging Nonviolence, "a source for original news and analysis about struggles for justice and peace around the globe." [20][21] Popovic was removed from the board in the wake of the Stratfor controversy (see below).[22]

Teaching
In addition to activism, Popovic also runs educational workshops and lectures at a variety of forums and universities. Additionally, he has taught courses on nonviolence tactics and political struggle at Grinnell College, Harvard University,[23] Colorado College, New York University, Johns Hopkins University, Columbia University, Northeastern University, Rutgers University, and Belgrade University. Popovic and the Centre for Applied Nonviolent Actions and Strategies have partnered with Northeastern University's Co-Op program, hosting interns and running them through nonviolence workshops.

Understand from my perspective
that in the US we have a huge fringe element blaming CIA for everything from sunspots to canker sores .and they're all over internet & cable TV.
I try to cross check the less radical ones' observations on some foreign affairs, ( one of which was the famous leaked Victoria Nuland phonecall discussing whom to put in charge of Ukraine government, ( transcript here er, mentors , surely BBC qualifies as a source ? )
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26079957
and make my own conclusions so as to not get pulled into the "conspiracy theory" lunatic fringe.

Popovic gave an interesting interview to "The Guardian" here
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/mar/08/srdja-popovic-revolution-serbian-activist-protest
When a country is attacked from the outside, everyone rallies around its leadership – even a really bad leadership. Foreign military interventions don’t bring change.”

Nor, Popovic argues, do many sanctions. “The targeted ones, on Milosevic’s inner circle, were great. But the oil embargo just made the mafia richer, and the trade embargo plunged us into hyper-inflation; my parents were selling smuggled petrol in the streets to survive.”

Imposing this kind of thing on a society from outside, Popovic is now convinced, “gives the government every excuse to do whatever it wants to do. That’s number one. Number two, it makes every single person who you’re going to be relying on for durable change really struggle for their life. They are all going to be too busy just surviving to mobilise.”
From such experiences, Otpor! reached its conclusion that internal resistance, not external intervention, is the best driver for political change.

.....
And Syria … Well, Syria’s opposition, Popovic says, “figured that if only they took up arms, the cavalry would come riding over the hill, just like it did in Libya. Except it didn’t.

Great observation, thanks for introducing me to his outfit.

I'll keep on reading.

Thank you again.

old jim
 
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  • #1,007
...Victoria Nuland phonecall discussing whom to put in charge of Ukraine government,

This *phone call* by a US diplomat, referencing other *phone calls* is what you mean when you said earlier that the US is overthrowing countries all over, in the case of Ukraine? C'mon.

The United States btw has a 1994 security agreement with Ukraine, made in order for Ukraine to let go of its large nuclear arsenal after the collapse of the USSR. That agreement made the world safer for all. Given the obligations in that agreement, any US diplomat on the eastern European desk better have a good idea of who the US likes for leadership in the Ukraine and who is a lunatic gangster.
 
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  • #1,008
jim hardy said:
Understand from my perspective
that in the US we have a huge fringe element blaming CIA for everything from sunspots to canker sores .and they're all over internet & cable TV.

I completely understand that. You might be surprised at how widespread this phenomenon is. There are similar groups in Egypt blaming the CIA for many (and often contradictory) things.

There's a large group of people who blame the 2011 uprising on the US. These normally come from my parents generation who are very likely to hate both the revolution and the US. They're all over the state run media. They can find whatever ammunition they want to support their conspiracy, for instance, Wael Ghoneim has an American wife and he lives in California at the moment.

There's a smaller group who blame the rise of the Muslim brotherhood to power in 2012 on the US. After all, Morsi did live, study, and teach in the US. I remember seeing on the tele a member of the constitutional court proclaiming that Obama is a secret Muslim Brotherhood agent (I think the allegation isn't original, she probably stole the idea from some online American conspiracy enthusiast).

And then there's of course the Muslim Brotherhood supporters who believe the 2013 coup was orchestrated by the US (and the Coptic Church, and any other group they don't like). Again El Sisi did study in a US Army War College in Pennsylvania.
 
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ISIS Call for Stabbing Sprees a Nightmare Scenario for Stopping Terror Plots - seems to target Russia.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/m/cdb0f50c-00e9-3144-a6b0-df5c541b22d7/ss_isis-call-for-stabbing-sprees.html

A Sunni fighter holds a document giving details on ISIS’s campaign against Russia the day after they recaptured the northern town from the Islamic State group on September 23, 2016. The same day vice presidential candidates met to clash over who had the best plan to stop terrorism, the Islamic State was telling would-be jihadists that they didn’t need a lot of planning to wage homespun attacks -
 
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  • #1,010
HossamCFD said:
I completely understand that. You might be surprised at how widespread this phenomenon is. There are similar groups in Egypt blaming the CIA for many (and often contradictory) things.
Astronuc said:
ISIS Call for Stabbing Sprees a Nightmare Scenario for Stopping Terror Plots - seems to target Russia.
former CIA director Mike Morell in August this year
 
  • #1,011
jim hardy said:
former CIA director Mike Morell in August this year

Jim - the parallel was for US soldiers in Iraq attacked via Iranian proxies. ISIS is threatening terror attacks on random civilian targets in Russia, not on Russian soldiers and pilots *in Syria*. The US does not target civilians.
 
  • #1,012
jim hardy said:
former CIA director Mike Morell in August this year


I'm not sure I get this. It seems to me that you're insinuating that the US has some, well, understanding with ISIS regarding this, or that ISIS is doing the US bidding when they call for attacking Russian civilians.

Please correct me if that's not what you meant.

It's very clear that ISIS doesn't need any extra motivation to attack either Russia or Iran. In fact, almost exactly a year ago ISIS was responsible for downing a Russian jet in Sinai en route to St. Petersburg from Sharm El-Sheikh. Also, ISIS seems to have a functional recruitment base in Russia. Russian jihadists top the list of all non-Arab foreign fighters in ISIS, third only to Tunisia and Saudi Arabia.

Also, as mheslep pointed out, there are no grounds for the suggestion that the US would target Russian civilians.
 
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  • #1,013
HossamCFD said:
I'm not sure I get this. It seems to me that you're insinuating that the US has some, well, understanding with ISIS regarding this, or that ISIS is doing the US bidding when they call for attacking Russian civilians.

no, i don't think we're in cahoots with Isis anymore (there was a good Frontline on how they developed)
just that we've still got people advocating forcible regime change and "poke the bear" .
 
  • #1,014
HossamCFD said:
I'm not sure I get this. It seems to me that you're insinuating that the US has some, well, understanding with ISIS regarding this, or that ISIS is doing the US bidding when they call for attacking Russian civilians.
I'm sure Jim was not suggesting that, but supporting anti-Assad forces and either defeating Assad or having them reach a political solution (not sure what that would be) would be costly to Russia in terms of reducing their influence. The US is of course, fighting against Daesh. However, the US is supporting some groups to whom Russia is hostile. There are a spectrum of Sunni or Syrian opposition groups against Assad, some affiliated with al-Qaeda, who both US and Russia oppose, and some that the US supports and Russia opposes, and then there is Assad who Russia supports and US opposes. What a quagmire we're bogged in.
 
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  • #1,015
jim hardy said:
still got people advocating forcible regime change ...
Morell specifically did *not* advocate regime change via force. He mentioned several uses of force to make Assad, Putin, and the Iranians pay a price for continuing to slaughter people in Syrian, for bombing UN supply convoys.
 
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  • #1,016
jim hardy said:
no, i don't think we're in cahoots with Isis anymore (there was a good Frontline on how they developed)
just that we've still got people advocating forcible regime change and "poke the bear" .

I see. Well, the bear along with its minions have been wreaking havoc for quite some time now. My only objection to poking it is that it might be too little too late.

Regime change? Syrians wanted regime change 5 years ago. Assad responded by releasing his artillery on Homs and Dar'a, and the rest is history.
 
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  • #1,017


I watched all of the Morell interview Jim referenced (thanks), and want to comment generally.

A good bit of it is a critique of Trump on foreign policy, his narcissism. I share some of those concerns. By contrast Morell finds Clinton a sound leader. Morell goes on to discuss his own proposals going forward to mitigate Syria, N. Korea. All very erudite.

However, Morell's discussion of *past* results, of how past policy has led the US to this point: non-existent. Results include 1/2 million dead in Syria, Putin in Ukraine shooting an airliner out the sky, nuclear weapons in N. Korea, Libya in chaos, the US exit from Iraq, the reentry into Iraq. These things happened in part on Morell's, Clinton's, and Obama's watch, and he does not find cause and effect in the past relevant. Only Morell's next policy proposal is relevant. In terms more familiar for a physics forum, it's as if he was the principal researcher on a multi year grant with billions in funding, at the conclusion of which instead of presenting results, he gives a pitch for the next big grant.

Now, who is the greater narcisist?
 
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  • #1,018
mheslep said:
Morell's, Clinton's, and Obama's watch
It goes back aways, but one could see the unraveling during the administrations of Carter, Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and now Obama.
 
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Astronuc said:
It goes back aways, but one could see the unraveling during the administrations of Carter, Reagan, HW Bush, Clinton, GW Bush and now Obama.
It? Morell is talking about the Syrian civil war, Libyan civil war, Ukraine invasion, all which happened in the last half dozen years, and N. Korea nukes which goes back to Clinton. What Morell neglects to do is to discuss cause and effect, or neglect, for these problems.
 
  • #1,020
Not wanting to get off track on Daesh, but the North Korean Nuclear program began in the 60s and their weapons program took off in the 80s.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction#History

First NK nuclear detonation was in the middle of the GW Bush administration (2006), and the second right after Obama took office (2009). The second one was being prepared during the Bush admin.

GW Bush's invasion of Iraq, under false pretenses (Cheney and his allies mostly), blew the lid off and destabilized the region. I can understand why HW Bush didn't invade or support the opposition to Saddam Hussein, but it could have been handled differently.

Meanwhile, if we go back to Carter and Reagan, and their support of the Afghans against Russia, there was a great concern in the intelligence community about blowback. Well, we suffering the blowback. From Carter through GW Bush, they seemed oblivious to the development of terrorist networks and the supporting role that the Pakistani ISI played. Even the Saudis now admit they made mistakes, because they are suffering from the blowback as well.

Ambassador Peter Tomsen's book, The Wars of Afghanistan (2013), offers some startling revelations.
 
  • #1,021
Not every significant event has its origin cherry picked at the dawn of civilization, or with the first Roman road. Even if they did, attempting to go back through the ages becomes an excuse for avoiding what worked and did not work in very recent history and avoiding responsibility. Syria. Libya. Ukraine. These places fell apart with great violence starting in the last few years, and the problems are ongoing. Why can't Morrell admit his mistakes, or those of the candidate he supports who has been Sec State.
 
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  • #1,023
Jonathan Freedland wrote an interesting editorial in The Guardian. It starts as follows:

Pity the luckless children of Aleppo. If only the bombs raining down on them, killing their parents, maiming their friends, destroying their hospitals – if only those bombs were British or, better still, American.

Then the streets of London would be jammed with protestors demanding an end to their agony. Trafalgar Square would ring loud with speeches from Tariq Ali, Ken Loach and Monsignor Bruce Kent. Whitehall would be a sea of placards, insisting that war crimes were being committed and that these crimes were Not in Our Name. Grosvenor Square would be packed with noisy protestors outside the US embassy, urging that Barack Obama be put on trial in The Hague. The protestors would wear Theresa May masks and paint their hands red. And they would be doing it all because, they’d say, they could not bear to see another child killed in Aleppo.

But that is not the good fortune of the luckless children of that benighted city. Their fate is to be terrorised by the wrong kind of bombs, the ones dropped by Bashar al-Assad and Vladimir Putin. As such, they do not qualify for the activist sympathy of the movement that calls itself the Stop the War Coalition. Indeed, it’s deputy chair, Chris Nineham, told the Today programme that his organisation would not be organising or joining any protests outside the Russian embassy because that would merely fuel the “hysteria and the jingoism” currently being whipped up against Moscow. Stop the War would instead, explained Nineham in a moment of refreshing candour, be devoting its energies to its prime goal – “opposing the west”.
 
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  • #1,025
Vanadium 50 said:
Jonathan Freedland wrote an interesting editorial in The Guardian. It starts as follows:
I imagine "opposing the west" pays well for such groups via membership fees and donations, and not so much for waiving signs and red hands outside Putin's embassy. Also, there's the that chance of catching a nasty case of polonium poisoning from protesting Putin in the UK.
 
  • #1,026
russ_watters said:
Wow. "Candor" indeed, but I don't know that I'd use the word "refreshing".
Well, in the same sense that emerging from a spell inside a particularly foul outdoor portable toilet is refreshing.
 
  • #1,027
In Aleppo, jewel of Syrian rebellion faces possible collapse
https://www.yahoo.com/news/aleppo-jewel-syrian-rebellion-faces-possible-collapse-111448454.html

Aleppo is/was Syria's largest city. Not much left of the eastern side now.Meanwhile in Iraq - the Iraqi Army is advancing on Mosul, Iraq's second largest city, currently under IS control.
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/17/w...-and-hints-of-resistance-as-battle-nears.html

Iraq Rejects Turkish Bid to Participate in Mosul Fight
http://www.voanews.com/a/iraq-carter/3561874.html

Mosul battle: Hundreds treated over toxic fumes in Iraq
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37738667

Mosul battle: IS launches Iraq counter-attack at Kirkuk
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-37725108
 
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  • #1,028
Turkey on a land grab in Syria, Iraq?
https://www.yahoo.com/news/latest-nasrallah-rebels-trying-change-map-142201292.html

What if the Turkish military moves into Syria and doesn't leave? Ostensibly, they have an interest in the region, e.g., supporting Turkomen and opposing the Kurds.
 
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  • #1,029
Astronuc said:
What if the Turkish military moves into Syria and doesn't leave?
I imagine roughly the same that happened when Russia moved into Crimea and did not leave.
 
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In the past few weeks, a conflict between Ankara and Baghdad over Turkey’s role in the liberation of Mosul has precipitated an alarming burst of Turkish irredentism. On two separate occasions, President Recep Tayyip Erdogan https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/erdogan-comments-on-historic-treaty-irks-opposition-greece/2016/09/30/343e0efc-8713-11e6-b57d-dd49277af02f_story.html the Treaty of Lausanne, which created the borders of modern Turkey, for http://hsrd.yahoo.com/RV=1/RE=1478481703/RH=aHNyZC55YWhvby5jb20-/RB=/RU=aHR0cDovL3d3dy55ZW5pc2FmYWsuY29tL2d1bmRlbS9jdW1odXJiYXNrYW5pLWVyZG9nYW4tMTkyMy1wc2lrb2xvamlzaXlsZS1oYXJla2V0LWVkZW1leWl6LTI1NTAxNzAA/RS=%5EADArri3N5grcWi6WZYQqZRgnlCVX3w- the country too small. He spoke of the country’s interest in the fate of Turkish minorities living beyond these borders, as well as its historic claims to the Iraqi city of Mosul, near which Turkey has a small military base. And, alongside news of Turkish jets bombing Kurdish forces in Syria and engaging in mock dogfights with Greek planes over the Aegean Sea, Turkey’s pro-government media have shown a newfound interest in a series of imprecise, even crudely drawn, maps of Turkey with new and improved borders.
https://www.yahoo.com/news/turkey-maps-reclaiming-ottoman-empire-200053589.html

Turkey has been has been agitating to be involved in the battle for Mosul, and Iraq has declined the offer.
 
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  • #1,032
nsaspook said:
......

And from the RT (@2:50), Russian bombings in Aleppo and the US-Iraqi fight against ISIS in Mosul are "virtually the same" thing, like pushing an old lady out of the path of an incoming bus and pushing one into the path of a bus are virtually the same thing.
 
  • #1,033
mheslep said:
And from the RT, Russian bombings in Aleppo and the US-Iraqi fight in Mosul are "virtually the same" thing, like pushing an old lady out of the path of an incoming bus and pushing one into the path of a bus are virtually the same thing.

The bottom line is that the allied coalition will have to bomb targets with a high probability of civilian deaths because that's the nature of urban combat vs terrorist. The old lady will be just as dead in either case when large parts of the city have to be destroyed to save it from Daesh.
 
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nsaspook said:
The bottom line ...
Euphemisms are assertions of what you consider important, not deep truths. The same assertion has been made that Nazi atrocities were the about the same as the Allied bombing and shelling of France because people died in both instances. The assertion was deplorable then, deplorable now.
 
  • #1,035
mheslep said:
Euphemisms are assertions of what you consider important, not deep truths. The same assertion has been made that Nazi atrocities were the about the same as the Allied bombing and shelling of France because people died in both instances. The assertion was deplorable then, deplorable now.

That's a little much. The last time I checked, officially Russia is on 'our' side in the battle vs Daesh just like they were back them.
 
  • #1,036
nsaspook said:
That's a little much.
I was thinking the idea that the only thing that matters is that granny is dead, regardless of the point of the conflict, was a little much.

The last time I checked, officially Russia is on 'our' side in the battle vs Daesh just like they were back them.
Echos of Gary Johnson, ala "What's Aleppo"? There is no significant Daesh presence in Aleppo. Based on their actions, Russia is on Bashar al-Assad's side which means the like of air-attacks on UN aide convoys. The Russians oppose Daesh when it doesn't get in the way of the primary mission of opposing Syrian anti-al-Assad rebels. Despite their talk, there's little evidence of Russian efforts to do anything decisive about Daesh where Daesh does control territory.
 
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mheslep said:
Echos of Gary Johnson, ala "What's Aleppo"? There is no significant Daesh presence in Aleppo. Based on their actions, Russia is on Bashar al-Assad's side which means the like of air-attacks on UN aide convoys. The Russians oppose Daesh when it doesn't get in the way of the primary mission of opposing Syrian anti-al-Assad rebels. Despite their talk, there's little evidence of Russian efforts to do anything decisive about Daesh where Daesh does control territory.

We both know there is more to the Russian involvement in Syria than Aleppo or even Assad and how the Russia sphere of influence with other major powers in the region is at stake. Yes, there is currently no significant Daesh presence in East Aleppo because it's held by other terrorist of the same flavor Army of Conquest who, we are to believe have a better plan for Syria at large. :rolleyes:
In an October 2015 publication, the Washington D.C.-based Institute for the Study of War considered Jaish al-Fatah as one of the "powerbrokers" in Idlib,Hama, Daraa and Quneitra provinces, though not in Damascus province, being primarily "anti-regime" and "anti-Hezbollah" but not necessarily "anti-ISIS".[12]
 
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  • #1,040
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/...t-rebel-held-east-aleppo-161126214447646.html
The army said in a statement it had, alongside its allies, taken full control over the Hanano housing district, which is on the northeast frontline of the eastern sector.

"Engineering teams are removing mines and improvised explosive devices planted by terrorists in the squares and streets," the statement said.

The Syrian government calls all forces fighting against it "terrorists".

An official in an Aleppo rebel group said a map circulated by pro-government media showing government forces in control of the Hanano area was largely accurate.

The UK-based Syrian Observatory for Human Rights said the army had established control over Hanano, which was the first part of Aleppo taken over by armed opposition groups in 2012.
...
In the 12 days since the renewed bombardment on east Aleppo, at least 201 civilians, including 27 children, have died in the besieged sector, the Observatory said. There were 134 rebel fighter deaths.

The monitor also documented 19 civilian deaths, including 11 children, and dozens of injuries as a result of rebel shelling of government-held west Aleppo.

Rebel shelling into the Sheikh Maqsoud district, which is under the control of the Kurdish YPG militia, has killed three people, it said.

Syrian state news agency SANA said three people died and 15 were injured on Saturday when rebels fired rockets into government-held west Aleppo.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-38123829
Syrian government forces have retaken a second rebel-held district in eastern Aleppo, military sources say.

They say the army and its allies had "fully recaptured" Jabal Badro.

Hours earlier, rebel sources confirmed that neighbouring Hanano district had fallen and was now under government control.
 
  • #1,041
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/11/water-supply-cut-iraq-mosul-161129202802305.html
Water was cut to 650,000 people when a pipeline was hit during fighting between ISIL and the Iraqi government forces trying to crush them in their northern Iraq stronghold.

"We are facing a humanitarian catastrophe," said Hussam al-Abar, member of Mosul's Nineveh provincial council, adding that 1.5 million people were still inside Mosul.

"Basic services such as water, electricity, health, food are non-existent."

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKBN13P1UN

Syrian rebels on Wednesday vowed to fight on in east Aleppo in the face of sudden government advances that have cut the area held by the opposition by a third in recent days and brought insurgents in the city to the brink of a catastrophic defeat.

Gains by the Syrian army and its allies since last week have brought whole districts back under government control and led to a human exodus as thousands have fled their pulverized neighborhoods near the rapidly shifting front lines.

With the rebels now reduced to an area just kilometers across, the leaders of Russia and Turkey, two of the most powerful supporters of the opposing sides in the war spoke by phone on the need for a ceasefire, according to sources in Ankara.
 
  • #1,042
http://www.cnn.com/2016/12/08/middleeast/aleppo-syria-assad-refugees/index.html
On Thursday, CNN's crew was at the Maysaloon crossing in the Agheour area as the stream of people continued to gather pace.
Rebel forces controlled the Agheour area for at least 3½ years before it was retaken by Syrian government forces Tuesday.
The amount of people coming out of eastern Aleppo has gone up exponentially.

161208120517-04-capturing-aleppo-image4-exlarge-169.jpg


http://edition.cnn.com/2016/12/07/middleeast/syria-aleppo-conflict/
 
  • #1,043
Bernard-Henry Levy (journalist, French intellectual, author) reports surprisngly from Iraq that the Kurds and the Iraqi forces have developed a high degree of cooperation and camaraderie. Now they have also have the confidence born of success. If the alliance holds, though they move slowly, every ISIL fanatic detrmined to stay in Iraq is a dead man walking.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/inside-the-battle-for-mosul-1481153476
My team and I are present at a meeting between [Iraqi] Gen. Barwari and Sirwan Barzani, his Peshmerga Kurdish fighting-force counterpart. Their camaraderie is striking. Moving, too, is the evidence of the brotherhood of arms between their two elite units, their two golden divisions, about which previously I had my doubts.

We are seeing the smooth functioning, for now, of the strategy promoted by the Pentagon: the Kurds responsible for breaking through ISIS’s forward lines and opening the gates to the city; the Iraqis responsible for taking the eastern—and later the western—sectors of ISIS’s Berlin, street by street. The division of labor seems to be working. That is another pleasant surprise.
 
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  • #1,044
http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-syria-idUSKBN1420H5?il=0

Rebel resistance in Syria's Aleppo ended on Tuesday after years of fighting and months of bitter siege and bombardment that culminated in a bloody collapse of their defenses this week, as insurgents agreed to withdraw in a ceasefire.

Rebel officials said fighting would end on Tuesday evening and insurgents and the civilians who have been trapped in the tiny pocket of territory they hold in Aleppo would leave the city for opposition-held areas of the countryside to the west.

News of the deal, confirmed by Russia's U.N. envoy, came after the United Nations voiced deep concern about reports it had received of Syrian soldiers and allied Iraqi fighters summarily shooting dead 82 people in recaptured east Aleppo districts. It accused them of "slaughter".

"My latest information is that they indeed have an arrangement achieved on the ground that the fighters are going to leave the city," Russian U.N. Ambassador Vitaly Churkin told reporters. It could happen "within hours maybe", he said.

A surrender or withdrawal of the rebels from Aleppo would mean the end of the rebellion in the city, Syria's largest until the outbreak of war after mass protests in 2011.
...
However, while the rebels, including groups backed by the United States, Turkey and Gulf monarchies, as well as jihadist groups that the West does not support, will suffer a crushing defeat in Aleppo, the war will be far from over.

"The crushing of Aleppo, the immeasurably terrifying toll on its people, the bloodshed, the wanton slaughter of men, women and children, the destruction – and we are nowhere near the end of this cruel conflict," U.N. High Commissioner for Human Rights Zeid Ra'ad al-Hussein said in a statement.

What a horrible achievement.
 
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  • #1,046
http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/19/who-...or-to-turkey-it-could-be-a-lot-of-people.html
The vicious, entangled war involving Turkey, Russia, Syria and a dozen other combatants got more confusing on Monday when http://www.cnbc.com/2016/12/19/russian-ambassador-gunned-down-in-ankara-seriously-wounded.html. Andrey Karlov was gunned down while giving a speech at an art gallery in the Turkish capital.

A solitary gunman, whom Turkey's interior minister confirmed was a Turkish police officer, was killed by security forces following the assassination. Video from the scene showed a shouting man in a black business suit and tie standing over the ambassador with a handgun.
 
  • #1,047
Christmas in Aleppo.

The former rebel held part of the city.
 
  • #1,048
Not Iraq or Syria, but Daesh reaching out -
https://www.yahoo.com/news/australian-police-prevented-bombings-christmas-225149726.html
CANBERRA, Australia (AP) -- Police in Australia have detained five men suspected of planning a series of Christmas Day bomb attacks in the heart of the country's second-largest city, officials said Friday.

The suspects had been inspired by the Islamic State group and planned attacks on Melbourne's Flinders Street train station, neighboring Federation Square and St. Paul's Cathedral, Victoria state Police Chief Commissioner Graham Ashton said.
. . . .
I used to pass through Finders Street and by St. Paul's Cathedral on my way to my Dad's office - 50+ years ago.
 
  • #1,049
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2...intact-despite-apparent-government-violations
A ceasefire across Syria appeared to be holding on Friday as its brokers, Russia and Turkey, sought support at the UN security council for the plan it hopes will trump failed peace proposals and end the six-year conflict.

Despite violations blamed on both sides in parts of the country, there were no reported civilian casualties by Friday night and diplomats were hopeful that the fragile truce would take root, despite all other attempts failing.

Russia, which has invested much political stock in ending the fighting after bombing the opposition relentlessly for the past 15 months, said it would ask the security council on Saturday to endorse a resolution backing its bilateral pact with Turkey – which makes aid access to besieged areas conditional on all protagonists downing weapons.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/2016/12/iraq-resumes-mosul-operation-161229112136259.html
Iraqi troops backed by US-led air strikes have pushed deeper into eastern Mosul after a two-week lull in the operation to retake the city held by the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL, also known as ISIS) group.

Staff Lieutenant-General Abdulghani al-Assadi, a senior officer in Iraq's counterterrorism service, said the second phase of the operation, now in its third month, began on Thursday.
...
Another coalition statement said an air strike on Thursday that targeted a van used by ISIL fighters in Mosul was later determined to have been located at a hospital's car park, "resulting in possible civilian casualties".

The coalition, it added, "takes all allegations of civilian casualties seriously and this incident will be fully investigated and the findings released in a timely and transparent manner."

It was not immediately known how many, if any, were hurt by the air strike.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-mosul-idUSKBN14J14I
 
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  • #1,050
I'm curious why the leaked John Kerry comments about letting ISIS grow as a strategy to oust Assad isn't a bigger deal. What am I missing?
 
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