News Iraqi unrest, Syrian unrest, and ISIS/ISIL/Daesh

[HossamCFD]

So I apologize if I have made anyone here angry or raised their level of emotional discomfort.

No worries. There's no need to apologise as far as I'm concerned. There's nothing wrong with having different opinions even if the issue is sensitive and I know you mean well. I try my best not to get emotional or at least hide it but sometimes I fail. After all, I am an Arab, we tend to reside on the emotional side of things...

Assad was leader of an established and recognized sovereign nation when it came under attack by armed revolutionaries. Exactly like any good leader, he defended his nation from attack. IMO, we should have helped him, and not the rebels.

I think this where we disagree the most. My reading of the events goes like this: Assad was a leader who, when faced with peaceful protests demanding well deserved political reforms, opted for bombing his own citizens as he would rather kill his own civilians on a massive scale than step down. We failed to intervene in the first 6 months -1 year window in which there was a good and a bad side and during which an intervention IMO could've helped. Faced with artillery and bombs the protesters took up arms to defend themselves against the maniac, as no one came to their rescue. An Al Qaeda affiliated group from neighbouring Iraq took advantage of this whole mess and we know what followed from there.

I respect that you have a different opinion but I cannot hide my disappointment at your calling him 'good leader'. I respectfully urge you to reconsider.

Czcibor

It doesn't seem that we're in a disagreement, but we might be talking past each other. I never called for a western invasion, ousting of Assad, and rebuilding Syria in the west's image. That would be unreasonable and wouldn't work at this point anyway. My original comments were against actively helping Assad, which I don't think you're arguing for.

Regarding Iraq, I think any discussion of a partition has to wait until ISIS is completely and utterly defeated, which may take quite a while. I have no idea how willing the Sunni population is to concede Baghdad to Arab Shiites (and potentially Kirkuk to Kurdistan).

 

[Czcibor]

Czcibor

It doesn't seem that we're in a disagreement, but we might be talking past each other. I never called for a western invasion, ousting of Assad, and rebuilding Syria in the west's image. That would be unreasonable and wouldn't work at this point anyway. My original comments were against actively helping Assad, which I don't think you're arguing for.

OK, I misunderstood word "helping", because if you bomb ISIS heavily, then in such multi-sided conflict you boost Assad. And intervention to beat ISIS would be presumably the thing that would save that regime.

Regarding Iraq, I think any discussion of a partition has to wait until ISIS is completely and utterly defeated, which may take quite a while. I have no idea how willing the Sunni population is to concede Baghdad to Arab Shiites (and potentially Kirkuk to Kurdistan).

In both cases poorly. That's the reason why I would speed up the process and give local population in contested area a devils choice between some Sunni state in unspecified future, after defeating ISIS, or joining Kurdistan / Shia state now.

Do you consider a united Iraq as something that actually may be built?

 

[HossamCFD]

Do you consider a united Iraq as something that actually may be built?

The kurds should get their own state (and they seem very close from achieving this). They suffered for too long under Arabic rule. I'm also quite optimistic about a future Kurdistan. Inspite of living among Arabs for centuries, the Kurds somehow avoided getting infected with the two diseases that poisoned Arabic discourse for decades; oppressive Arabic nationalism and Islamic fundamentalism.

As for the Arabs, in principle yes. It doesn't need to be built, only stitched a little. Lebanon did it after 15 years of civil war that was split three ways (Sunni/Shia/Maronite Christians) and was even more complicated due to the foreign influence of Israel and Syria and most importantly Palestinian refuges. I can't think of a reason why Iraq can't do it if Lebanon could after such a bloody history.

I have to add that I genuinely don't know which would be better for Iraq. I'm not an Arabic nationalist; the unity of Iraq isn't necessarily a good thing in and of itself as far as I'm concerned, unless that's what Iraqis choose. If they choose to go on separate ways, it's very important that the decision comes from the Iraqis themselves and not imposed/championed by the west.

 

[Astronuc]

Despite bombing, UnIslamic State, aka Daesh, is no weaker than a year ago
http://news.yahoo.com/despite-bombing-islamic-state-no-weaker-ago-071937837--politics.html

 

[Borg]

UnIslamic State

That's a great way to put it!

 

[Czcibor]

"An Indonesian fighter in the ranks of the Islamic State group (IS/ISIS) passed AIDS on to his Yezidi sex slave. The same slave has been later sold to other members of the radical group, causing a state of panic in the ranks of IS in Shaddadi city, northeast Syria."
http://aranews.net/2015/06/aids-spread-among-isis-militants-who-raped-infected-yezidi-girl/

OK, so to group disqualified from blood donations, except from gays and people using intravenously heroine, should be added members of terrorist organizations...

 

[Dembadon]

Despite bombing, UnIslamic State, aka Daesh, is no weaker than a year ago
http://news.yahoo.com/despite-bombing-islamic-state-no-weaker-ago-071937837--politics.html

It will be interesting to see how the fight for Ramadi goes. I think the article lends to the need for more ground forces, and Ramadi might play a big role in whether that strategy is given more consideration.

 

[mheslep]

his appointment as PM. .

election as pm

 

[Monsterboy]

What ISIS really wants,how is it different from other terrorist organizations? http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

 

[Astronuc]

US-led warplanes are going after Daesh's most devastating weapon
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/coalition-airstrikes-just-pulverized-major-142124980.html

 

[jim hardy]

Monsterboy's link shows the parallel between islam and the lemming mindset that swept Germany. Italy & Japan 's populaces into the WW2 fervor. Eric Hoffer explored it in his "True Believer".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_True_Believer

It's going to take another unconditional surrender

 

[HossamCFD]

It's going to take another unconditional surrender

I wish that were the case. Unfortunately, I truly believe it won't be that easy. ISIS will be defeated, only for a similar group to pop up propagating the same ideas, whether in Syria and Iraq or somewhere else in the middle east. The group that was ISIS predecessor was almost completely defeated in Iraq a few years ago after the surge. Still they manage to resurrect themselves in Syria after the civil war and inspire an ever increasing number of affiliates around the middle east.

It will probably take decades, through which many groups like ISIS will spawn and disappear, until Islam goes through a second wave of reformation and completely clears itself from the roots of this ideology. I didn't want to comment on Astonuc's use of "UnIslamic state" as I thought it's a nice gesture that, even if inaccurate, many muslims would appreciate. But I do believe that it's very important to acknowledge the difficult reality that ISIS is indeed islamic (and before I'm accused of Islamophobia, I'm in no way saying that it's the only or most convincing interpretation of Islam nor am I saying that most muslims share their ideas. I'm only saying that given what we know about the history of the first 200 years of Islam and the main sources of traditional scholarly sunni Islam, many of ISIS actions are a plausible interpretation of that). At the end of the day if there is any solution it will have to come from the muslims. Stressing that ISIS beliefs are alien to Islam will IMO only delay said solution.

 

[jim hardy]

until Islam goes through a second wave of reformation and completely clears itself from the roots of this ideology.

there's the key

This business of killing one's neighbors, stealing his females and taking over his territory is right out of wildlife documentaries. Seems to be natural behavior in large brained mammals.

Civilization won't work under that paradigm.

As H G Wells' "Dr Moreau" said, "The beast keeps creeping out"

 

[Astronuc]

Not about Daesh, as about fallout from Daesh conquest of Mosul and later Ramadi.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33952451

An Iraqi parliamentary panel has called for former PM Nouri Maliki to face trial over the fall of the northern city of Mosul to Islamic State.

More than 30 other officials including former Mosul governor Athil al-Nujaifi were also blamed in the report.

 

[Astronuc]

UN official 'horrified' by attacks on Syria's civilians
http://news.yahoo.com/un-official-horrified-attacks-syrias-civilians-083646723.html

"Attacks on civilians are unlawful, unacceptable and must stop," O'Brien said, speaking at the end of a three-day visit to Syria, during which he met senior officials and visited the central province of Homs.
. . .
"I am particularly appalled by reports of airstrikes yesterday, causing scores of civilian deaths and hundreds injured, right in the center of Douma," O'Brien said. "I am horrified by the total disrespect for civilian life in this conflict."

I pity those caught between the Assad regime, various militant and rebel groups, and Daesh.

 

[jtbell]

ISIS has beheaded an 81-year-old archaeologist in Palmyra:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-33984006

 

[Astronuc]

IS beheads leading Syrian antiquities scholar in Palmyra
http://news.yahoo.com/beheads-leading-syrian-antiquities-scholar-palmyra-061925887.html

DAMASCUS, Syria (AP) — Daesh militants beheaded a leading Syrian antiquities scholar who spent most of his life looking after the ancient ruins of Palmyra, . . . .

The Sunni extremist group, which has imposed a violent interpretation of Islamic law, or Shariah, believes ancient relics promote idolatry. IS militants claim they are destroying ancient artifacts and archaeological treasures as part of their purge of paganism. The destruction IS has wreaked adds to the wider, extensive damage it has inflicted on ancient sites, including mosques and churches across Syria and Iraq.

 

[HossamCFD]

I'm not too sure if this is relevant enough, but I'm going to post it here anyway as I feel it presents a voice that doesn't get enough attention in the media.

This is an interview with imprisoned leader of the April 6th movement, and one of the Arab spring icons, Ahmed Maher. If you want to hear from Arab liberals and how does the west's support for Arabic dictators affect them, I highly recommend reading this:

http://arabist.net/blog/2015/8/17/i...nder-sisi?mc_cid=379e9dea25&mc_eid=19ccd191c5

This topic was touched upon here a few times in this thread. It's also a topic that I feel very strongly about since it's more than just politics to me. Maher says everything I wanted to say about it.

 

[mheslep]

As far as I can tell, the ongoing US aid to Egypt since Sisi ($1B/yr?) is in direct violation of US law.

"Sec. 7008. None of the funds appropriated or otherwise made available pursuant to titles III through VI of this Act shall be obligated or expended to finance directly any assistance to the government of any country whose duly elected head of government is deposed by military coup d'etat or decree or ..."

I'm happy to see the radical thug Morsi gone but that doesn't make the money in violation of law ok.

Apparently protests against this kind of thing and ongoing media coverage in the US are only valid when the President is not named Obama.

 

[Astronuc]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ne-survived-100-shrapnel-wounds-One-died.html

• Dr Çagla Seven was pictured holding on to the hand of her dying friend

• The pediatrician suffered over 100 shrapnel wounds from the blast

• Turkish media has named the suicide bomber as Seyh Abdurrahman Alagoz, a 20-year-old ethnic Kurd

• Alagoz had traveled to Syria and received training with Islamic State

 

[Czcibor]

there's the key

This business of killing one's neighbors, stealing his females and taking over his territory is right out of wildlife documentaries. Seems to be natural behavior in large brained mammals.

Civilization won't work under that paradigm.

As H G Wells' "Dr Moreau" said, "The beast keeps creeping out"

I think that there is one issue that is not being mentioned out of politeness. Jesus of Nazareth haven't offered any political system and early Christians were an apocalyptic cult under Roman Empire rule, where pagans were doing all dirty stuff of running the government, while Christians could have lived in communes, asceticism and (claimed) moral superiority. In Islam there is a problem that Muhammad actually run a government, what even though that his rule should be graded as enlighten for its era. So in case of "let's come back to the roots and be as literal as possible" a Christian has a limited abuse potential, except maybe granting all his Earthly possessions to some guru. Going anything militant can be easily accused of not being literal enough, concerning ex. "turning the other cheek". In case of Muslim he can easily just do what Muhammad did, because it would be improper to suggest that he has done anything improper.

I'm far from whitewashing my own cobelivers, especially as interpretation matters and in case of any arcane ancient text can be really flexible. Just in case of Islam the literal interpretation can easily lead into militarised, slave owning state with judicial amputations.

 

[Astronuc]

Daesh destroys ancient Catholic monastery in Syria - fate of hostages unclear
http://news.yahoo.com/destroys-ancient-catholic-monastery-syria-111130878.html

IS seized Al-Qaryatain on August 5, kidnapping at least 230 people, including dozens of Christians.
. . . .
The Observatory said that IS had released 48 of those it took captive when it overran the town, and had transferred another 110 to its stronghold of Raqa province.

The fate of the other 70 hostages was unclear.

Two weeks ago, Deash kidnapped civilians in Syria, and conducted mass executions in Iraq
http://news.yahoo.com/kidnaps-230-civilians-central-syria-monitor-084216982.html

Islamic State abducts dozens of Christians from Syrian town: monitor
http://news.yahoo.com/islamic-state...ns-syrian-town-monitor-082333044--sector.html

 

[HossamCFD]

From what I've known previously, radical Islam has a problem with statues that resemble animal and human form as well as anything that used to be worshipped as an idol. I don't think ISIS would go out of the way to destroy roman pillars and building ruins. I could be wrong though.

And I was wrong indeed. Daesh blows up Palmyra's temple dating from early first century AD
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34036644

 

[Astronuc]

And I was wrong indeed. Daesh blows up Palmyra's temple dating from early first century AD
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34036644

Very sad indeed.

Activists: Islamic State destroys temple at Syria's Palmyra
http://news.yahoo.com/iraqi-officials-23-soldiers-sunni-fighters-killed-143729076.html

 

[Evo]

Can I say a bunch of delusional scumbags?

 

[jim hardy]

I'm far from whitewashing my own cobelivers, especially as interpretation matters and in case of any arcane ancient text can be really flexible. Just in case of Islam the literal interpretation can easily lead into militarised, slave owning state with judicial amputations.

Well, our Deuteronomy 13 is a bit rough.

12If thou shalt hear say in one of thy cities, which the LORD thy God hath given thee to dwell there, saying, 13Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known; 14Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you; 15Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword. 16And thou shalt gather all the spoil of it into the midst of the street thereof, and shalt burn with fire the city, and all the spoil thereof every whit, for the LORD thy God: and it shall be an heap for ever; it shall not be built again.

http://biblehub.com/kjv/deuteronomy/13.htm

Quaint, eh ?

That's the problem with benevolent power - keeping it benevolent.

 

[Astronuc]

Daesh kills two generals in Iraq, advances in Syria
http://news.yahoo.com/suicide-bomber-kills-two-iraqi-generals-anbar-army-091409196.html

Baghdad (AFP) - A suicide attack claimed by the Islamic State group killed two Iraqi generals on Thursday in the key battleground province of Anbar, as the jihadists made gains in neighbouring Syria.

IS overran large areas of Iraq in 2014 and seized Anbar capital Ramadi earlier this year. It also controls major territory in Syria, where it has thrived amid a bloody civil war.

Pentagon probing alleged distorting of war intelligence
http://news.yahoo.com/pentagon-probing-alleged-distorting-war-intelligence-162450221.html

A Pentagon spokesman, Navy Capt. Jeff Davis, said Pentagon and Central Command officials have been publicly candid about the difficulty of the war against the Islamic State. At times, however, they have painted a rosier picture than was reflected by developments on the ground.

On May 15, for example, Brig. Gen. Thomas Weidley, who at the time was chief of staff to the military headquarters running the war, told reporters that the Islamic State was "losing and remains on the defensive." Even as he spoke, Iraqi officials were saying that IS fighters had captured the main government compound in Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province. Two days later the city fell, marking a significant victory for IS and a setback for the U.S. and Iraq.

 

[Czcibor]

Well, our Deuteronomy 13 is a bit rough.

http://biblehub.com/kjv/deuteronomy/13.htm

Quaint, eh ?

That's the problem with benevolent power - keeping it benevolent.

I know it very well, just it's a part easy to sweep under carpet. Jesus, when ex. refused to take part in stoning of an adulteress, c̶o̶n̶t̶r̶a̶d̶i̶c̶t̶e̶d̶ hmm... o̶v̶e̶r̶r̶u̶l̶e̶d̶ hmm... fulfilled ;) big part of former scripture. Same fate was shared by observing Sabbath (or actually ignoring by him it), his disciples after a vision started ignoring Jewish dietary laws... Generally speaking move in a very good direction. And doing exactly as he did has a limited abuse potential. (except of course living in an apocalyptic cult, but there is still limited harm for any third party)

 

[jim hardy]

Thanks, Czibor,
under the rug is a good place for such thoughts. They're still accessible there when we need to remember from whence we came.
old jim

 

[JonDE]

"An Indonesian fighter in the ranks of the Islamic State group (IS/ISIS) passed AIDS on to his Yezidi sex slave. The same slave has been later sold to other members of the radical group, causing a state of panic in the ranks of IS in Shaddadi city, northeast Syria."
http://aranews.net/2015/06/aids-spread-among-isis-militants-who-raped-infected-yezidi-girl/

OK, so to group disqualified from blood donations, except from gays and people using intravenously heroine, should be added members of terrorist organizations...

I didn't see this mentioned anywhere in this thread, but apparently ISIS is planning on using those infected with AIDS as suicide bombers.

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2015/08/21/isis-militants-hiv-suicide-bombers/

On a side note, can AIDS be transmitted through this act? Or probably more accurately, is it likely that someone near the blast could become infected?