News Is Bush's Mars Trip Proposal a Strategic Distraction?

[Loren Booda]

What credit should President Bush receive for suggesting a manned Mars trip? Does he scheme to one-up Kennedy, evade failed policy, or nationalize the world (all for ~$500,000,000,000)?

 

[Andy]

GO BUSH! WOOHOOO!

Lets kick some martian butt!

 

[jimmy p]

Yeah, This is for "War of the Worlds" Martian SCUM!

 

[member 5645]

Originally posted by Andy
GO BUSH! WOOHOOO!

Lets kick some martian butt!

Today, it was announced that Mars has oil! It all makes sense now!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Bush is in good company!

The top ten reasons...to go to Mars
http://www.enterprisemission.com/top-ten.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Bush is too late

Over the past 23 years, Hope estimates he has made $6.25 million selling land on the moon and the planets, primarily Mars and Venus.

For $19.99, along with a $1.51 lunar tax, you, too, can buy an acre on the moon or Mars. Hope even will send you a deed. If you don't like it, he gives a 30-day, money-back guarantee.

"I am fully aware of what I am doing," he says. "I am not operating a scam. I am taking advantage of an opportunity shown to me by a loophole in the law. I am exercising my right to be as profitable as possible."...

...In a flash, he remembered something he learned 12 years earlier while taking a political science class at an Oregon college.

His professor discussed the Outer Space Treaty of 1967, signed by all members of the United Nations. Hope remembered that all governments agreed no nation would have sovereignty or control over any of the celestial bodies.

But they did not mention individuals owning planets, he recalled. He drove to the local library to check whether his memory had failed him. It hadn't.

"When they passed the treaty, they probably never thought about individuals," Hope said. "It may have been an innocent mistake. So I filed a declaration of ownership for the moon and the eight other planets and their moons."

He filed his declaration of ownership in the local courthouse and quickly sent letters to the governments of the United States, Soviet Union and the United Nations. In those letters he expressed his ownership rights and intention to sell and subdivide the moon and planets.

"I said if they had any problem with it, let me know," Hope said. "I am still waiting to hear from them."

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2003/Sep-29-Mon-2003/news/22251899.html

 

[jimmy p]

where do i send my cheque? at the rate we are 'exploring' people will be dying to buy moonland.. got to be ahead of the game in the property market!

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by jimmy p
where do i send my cheque? at the rate we are 'exploring' people will be dying to buy moonland.. got to be ahead of the game in the property market!

The three most important words in real estate:
Location, location, location.

 

[Nereid]

But what if oil, uranium, and WMD were discovered on 'your' lunar (or martian) half acre/bottom paddock/plot?

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Nereid
But what if oil, uranium, and WMD were discovered on 'your' lunar (or martian) half acre/bottom paddock/plot?

Uhhh... Be a true capitalist, sell off all three to the highest bidder, and get real rich real fast?

 

[Ivan Seeking]

TREATY ON PRINCIPLES GOVERNING THE ACTIVITIES OF STATES IN THE EXPLORATION AND USE OF OUTER SPACE, INCLUDING THE MOON AND OTHER CELESTIAL BODIES

http://news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/mir/outerspacetrty.html

 

[jimmy p]

Hey, that was written on the earth, if I am on my plot of land on the moon I'm not going to care!

 

[Nereid]

We have ways of MAKING you care ;-)

Originally posted by jimmy p
Hey, that was written on the earth, if I am on my plot of land on the moon I'm not going to care!

You WILL care if Rummy thinks - or can be persuaded - that you have WMD

 

[Loren Booda]

Get out your space pen and sign on the dotted geodesic...

 

[Evo]

Funny, a few days ago one of the advertising banners here at PF was selling land on the moon.

Ok, for all of you outer space entrepreneurs, here is the site to actually file claims for extra terrestrial ownership. It's not a joke site. Although, I would say that the people filing the claims are a little looney.
http://www.permanent.com/archimedes/register.htm

Lawrence D. Roberts, the Director of the Archimedes Institute, is an academic specializing in issues of space law and policy. The author of numerous articles on international law and space law and policy, Professor Roberts is a member of the faculty at the Fordham University Graduate School of Business. He has taught at New York University School of Law, Seton Hall Law School, New England School of Law and the City University of New York School of Law. He received his Bachelor of Arts degree from Columbia University, his Juris Doctor degree from Cornell Law School and his Master of Laws degree from New York University School of Law. A former chair of the American Bar Association's Committee on United States Aerospace Law and Policy, Roberts currently Chairs the A.B.A.'s Committee on International Aerospace Law, the National Space Society's Policy Committee and the X Prize Foundation's Law and Policy Committee.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

from Ivans link..

Actually, these and other nations have no right to stop him because they surrendered any ownership rights in the U.N. treaty, Hope said.

If they have "no right to stop him" on the basis of "no ownership rights" then they also have no right to validate, either, him, or his claim, nor responcibility to protect his 'rights' that he doesn't really have and really cannot enforce...legally speaking(?)

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
from Ivans link..

If they have "no right to stop him" on the basis of "no ownership rights" then they also have no right to validate, either, him, or his claim, nor responcibility to protect his 'rights' that he doesn't really have and really cannot enforce...legally speaking(?)

This is a very grey area in space law right now.

"Article II of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty1 prohibits national appropriation of outer space, but it does not prohibit private appropriation.2 Hence, private entities may appropriate area in outer space or on a celestial body, although states may not.

Because the relationship between property and territorial sovereignty differs under common law and civil law systems, it is not immediately clear whether Article II would permit national governments to confer property rights upon private entities under their jurisdiction."

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Evo
This is a very grey area in space law right now.
"Article II of the 1967 Outer Space Treaty1 prohibits national appropriation of outer space, but it does not prohibit private appropriation.2 Hence, private entities may appropriate area in outer space or on a celestial body, although states may not.
Because the relationship between property and territorial sovereignty differs under common law and civil law systems, it is not immediately clear whether Article II would permit national governments to confer property rights upon private entities under their jurisdiction."

Whats not immediate, two differing nations could confer the same rights to two distinct and separate coporate (and or private) landclaimers, and you now have a conflict that the two states enter into via their respective assignatin of rights that they assign in a place where they enforce no rights, nor can support 'ownership' rights, and haven't the right to assign 'the right' that they don't really possesses 'to assign' in the first place, perhaps it should only be "People from Earth" who travel out/off of this planets atmosphere/face...whadda you think?

 

[jimmy p]

Lol, I am not from the US of A so i don't give a damn what Donald Rumsfield wants. Being a Brit means that we have a walk-over leader, he will let us by land on Mars for our own inscrutable purposes if we pressurise him enough and threaten not to vote for him. what a loser

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Whats not immediate, two differing nations could confer the same rights to two distinct and separate coporate (and or private) landclaimers, and you now have a conflict that the two states enter into via their respective assignatin of rights that they assign in a place where they enforce no rights, nor can support 'ownership' rights, and haven't the right to assign 'the right' that they don't really possesses 'to assign' in the first place, perhaps it should only be "People from Earth" who travel out/off of this planets atmosphere/face...whadda you think?

You've hit the nail on the head!

One of the propositions is that there be some type of "homesteading" requirement where an individual that wants to make a "claim" has to actually set up residence for a set period of years, making improvements to property, etc..., similar to existing homesteading laws. For example one person has filed a claim on our Sun. I'd love to see him homestead.

Space law is going to be extremely difficult unless they exclude individual claims as well as government claims.

The people of Earth are being rather presumptuous in thinking that they have any rights to claim anything off this planet.

For all we know an alien could show up with a deed to our planet and tell us we've got 48 hours to evacuate. I'm being silly, but obviously for individual and business claims it's about potential money if we ever do manage to venture forth and begin to destroy other celestial bodies for fun and profit.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Possession is nine tenths of the law...thus the new space race?

This all strikes me a bit as the birth pangs of a new gold rush.

 

[jimmy p]

I CALL SATURN!

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by jimmy p
I CALL SATURN!

Ya cool, but I have the "mineral rights" so if you need to use anything beneath your feet, well send chq. or Money orders C/O "Saturnia mining Co" or simply insert cash in the slot provided...


^{___________________________[/color]}
Money Slot, insert $ above

 

[jimmy p]

Garn, should have thought of that one...however you will have to pay comission yourself to get access to my private property and do you work so i expect a hefty cheque to come MY way!

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by jimmy p
Garn, should have thought of that one...however you will have to pay comission yourself to get access to my private property and do you work so i expect a hefty cheque to come MY way!

go read the law buddy...

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
go read the law buddy...

True, if Mr Parsons has the mineral rights, I don't believe you can stop him from tearing your property up to get what is his.

It's been awhile, but when I lived in Houston, TX, a new house I bought was on land previously owned by Exxon and they were retaining the mineral rights. I had to sign papers acknowledging that if they ever thought there was anything of value under my house, they could basically bulldoze my house to get to it. I looked at the attorney and he said "don't worry, they wouldn't be selling the property unless they were sure there was nothing there, so it's unlikely they will ever do this".

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Have read the same kind of thing having happened here in Kingston's surrounding area's, Ontario's law (I think)...

 

[jimmy p]

DAMMIT! humph well, its my planet my rules. Ok, well i'll lay claim on Uranus too, no-one will want to mine up there!

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by jimmy p
DAMMIT! humph well, its my planet my rules. Ok, well i'll lay claim on Uranus too, no-one will want to mine up there!

Chopnik, get the mineral rights!

 

[jimmy p]

OOH OOH QUICKLY! mineral rights are mine too HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

hey mom, I am suprised you didnt get them first!

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by jimmy p
OOH OOH QUICKLY! mineral rights are mine too HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

hey mom, I am suprised you didnt get them first!

I'm relying on you son! BTW, you're half American now.

 

[jimmy p]

I won't fail you! oh yeah, point taken!

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by jimmy p
DAMMIT! humph well, its my planet my rules. Ok, well i'll lay claim on Uranus too, no-one will want to mine up there!

I can almost gaurantee that no one will be wanting to mine around Uranus.

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Evo
I'm relying on you son! BTW, you're half American now.

'MOM'?
'SON'?

Evo! When did you become Mrs. Chopnik?!

 

[jimmy p]

she has adopted me!

 

[Nereid]

cut & paste from another post

Mr Parsons said this comment is more appropriate here ...

"SelfAdjoint also mentioned Karl Rove (in another post); I just read up on him - given that
a) this is an election year in the US,
b) that Texas and Florida are important to the Republicans,
c) the Bush Mars initiative should bring in lots of votes for that party in those states,
d) there was no advance signaling of this initiative,
e) Bush has shown no interest in science or space before, and
f) the Mars initiative will not be funded out of any Bush budget (it will come later)
... it's hard to see this as anything but a deeply cynical move (I'm resisting the urge to say something about a certain Middle-Eastern country).

Shall I compare thee to ... a pig? Just as likely to fly."

The Iraq reference? Bush et al have shown, beyond any doubt, that they are quite prepared to tell bald-faced lies (which result in the deaths of thousands) to suit their objectives of securing oil supplies (thanks to Russ for this); what's a little disingenuousness over Mars between advisors? After all, the only people who will be hurt will be a few hundred astronomers and planetary scientists; oh, and some disappointment among young and old science-lovers. Small price to pay for better Republican control.

I'm very depressed by this news; normally I see ponies everywhere

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Nereid
(SNIP)[/color] Mr Parsons said this comment is more appropriate here ...
(SNoP)[/color]

Hummm I had said "Politics and World Affairs", but not this specific thread, but it does seem to fit, just that, I was just about to announce that I had discovered (and patented) the Holy Grail of all Bi !N^th opportunities, the Patent rights to the original structure of the universe, of which everything in the universe is made of, hence My declaration that I (Mr. Robin Parsons AT # !1 "No" space) am sole proprietor of everything material/physical/structural{ly designed out of my original model} in the entirety of the Universe...but your getting in my way Nereid!

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Hummm I had said "Politics and World Affairs", but not this specific thread, but it does seem to fit, just that, I was just about to announce that I had discovered (and patented) the Holy Grail of all Bi !N^th opportunities, the Patent rights to the original structure of the universe, of which everything in the universe is made of, hence My declaration that I (Mr. Robin Parsons AT # !1 "No" space) am sole proprietor of everything material/physical/structural{ly designed out of my original model} in the entirety of the Universe...but your getting in my way Nereid!

I want to be Mr. Robin Parsons' best friend.

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Hummm I had said "Politics and World Affairs", but not this specific thread, but it does seem to fit, just that, I was just about to announce that I had discovered (and patented) the Holy Grail of all Bi !N^th opportunities, the Patent rights to the original structure of the universe, of which everything in the universe is made of, hence My declaration that I (Mr. Robin Parsons AT # !1 "No" space) am sole proprietor of everything material/physical/structural{ly designed out of my original model} in the entirety of the Universe...but your getting in my way Nereid!

Mr. Robin Parsons, you are truly a permanent resident of the ozone!
(jeez, and MY friends call ME whacky... )

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Mr. Robin Parsons, you are truly a permanent resident of the ozone!
(jeez, and MY friends call ME whacky... )

Must be a typo , you said OZone, not "No" Zone/(AKA 'space')
Whew!

P.S. Careful how you address me there Bud , I just acquired this little right back there, and well, what is your breathing rate, Hummm ten cents per (x)liters of air ^ population of planet ^ Average rate per person + tax = How much? send your tributes to...

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by Loren Booda
What credit should President Bush receive for suggesting a manned Mars trip?

Strongly depends on whether it gets funded or not, I suppose.

 

[Phobos]

Originally posted by Mr. Robin Parsons
Ya cool, but I have the "mineral rights" so if you need to use anything beneath your feet, well send chq. or Money orders C/O "Saturnia mining Co" or simply insert cash in the slot provided...

You can have Saturn's mining rights...it's just a light-weight planet anyway. I'll take the mining rights to Neptune where it rains diamonds...
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1999/1006/diamonds.html

Someone else can have Uranus and be the butt of the jokes.

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Phobos
Strongly depends on whether it gets funded or not, I suppose.

Yes and one of the points made was that it wouldn't be out of money that he would be, then, accountable towards...it is not exactly a new Idea, but coming from a President it does carry more thought...but the Title indicates the Originating Authors belief (Loren Booda) that it was a "Red Herring" hence what followed fell into proprietary rights to the end result of such ventures, something that I had wanted to point out as being probably different then what most think of "off of the cuff" so to speak, to be there, on Mars, and live, growing food, and reliant upon only 'self sufficiency' not what would be called a tourist trip. (although it would probably make for a great adventure, as a tourist trip!) {Go figure!}

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Phobos
You can have Saturn's mining rights...it's just a light-weight planet anyway. I'll take the mining rights to Neptune where it rains diamonds...

Phobos, when DeBeers finds out about you, you'll be toast.

Interesting article BTW, thanks!

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Phobos
You can have Saturn's mining rights...it's just a light-weight planet anyway. I'll take the mining rights to Neptune where it rains diamonds...
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1999/1006/diamonds.html

Someone else can have Uranus and be the butt of the jokes.

Oo. Oo.
Evo, you can have Mr. Robin Parsons. I want to be PHOBOS' best friend!

I believe jimmy p has Uranus covered. Ar ar ar...

edit: You know... cover yer anus... HEY! Maybe we should change CYA to CU! (OK, sorry. I'll stop now.)

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Tsunami
Oo. Oo.
Evo, you can have Mr. Robin Parsons. I want to be PHOBOS' best friend!

Noooo, I want to be Phobos's best friend. Phobos...do you like chocolate?

I believe jimmy p has Uranus covered. Ar ar ar...

Oh dear, I did not understand the full extent of chopnik's meaning...

Originally posted by Chopnik
Ok, well i'll lay claim on Uranus too, no-one will want to mine UP THERE!

 

[Tsu]

Originally posted by Evo
Noooo, I want to be Phobos's best friend. Phobos...do you like chocolate?

BACK! GET BACK! (*cracks whip*)
HE'S MINE, I TELL YOU! I HAVE DOCUMENTED FIRST CLAIM! I HAVE CHOCOLATES, TOO, PHOBOS!

Oh dear, I did not understand the full extent of chopnik's meaning...

A senior moment?

 

[Evo]

Originally posted by Tsunami
A senior moment?

There are actually vitamin supplements on the market called "senior moment", perhaps I need some...

 

[Mr. Robin Parsons]

Originally posted by Phobos
You can have Saturn's mining rights...it's just a light-weight planet anyway. I'll take the mining rights to Neptune where it rains diamonds...
http://www.berkeley.edu/news/berkeleyan/1999/1006/diamonds.html
Someone else can have Uranus and be the butt of the jokes.

Didn't read the link yet, but you missed it as I have very clearly Claimed to own ALL MATTER IN THE UNIVERSE! so if you want Neptune, please,...line up! (license rights to all processes will be made available, shortly, right after I figure out the Fee schedule(s))

 

[Nereid]

Originally posted by Evo
There are actually vitamin supplements on the market called "senior moment", perhaps I need some...

And your daughter's but 16? I think not.