Is Chi an Actual Force in Our Bodies and Surroundings?

[Line]

In Chinese philosophy they talk of a force called Chi. It's an electrical current that runs through your body,everything around you, and Earth.

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

Also there is a current that runs through your body. Just like there's 14 pounds of air per sqaure ince of your body there's lots ofelectrcity running through us. We're used to it so we don't feel anything. I'm wondering could this be CHi also.

 

[Gokul43201]

Chi (whatever else it may be, whether or not it exists) has nothing to do with electric currents. For instance, the seven chakras of the human body, where the concentration of chi is supposed to be greatest are uncorrelated with neuron concentrations.

 

[J77]

When I used to do karate, we had to channel our Qi to stand firmer.

It does strangely work - the firmer bit. If you tense your muscles to stand firm, you can easily be knocked over. However, if you imagine your body flowing through the floor - as if you were fixed with your surroundings - it's very hard to move you, bit like a tree

Also, Qi is a very handy Scrabble word

 

[scott1]

I rember there being about a thread about some braceltet that blanced the "+ and - quantum ions" that were soppsed to be chi.But it sounds like a scam.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I know an engineer who will swear that the technique works, but he doesn't think there is anything mystical involved. However, when he started to explain to me what he saw as the prosaic explanation for why this works, it sounded like a real stretch to me. In fact, it sounded like nonsense to me.

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

Allegedly one adds power by piling up waves such that they interfere constructively, if you will, at the fist, at the exact moment of the punch. Of course the question is: Waves of what? He thinks this is something like a mechanical wave traveling along the muscles, but that doesn't make any sense to me. True believers say it is the Chi energy. At the least, it appears that using and practicing this technique mentally, one can dramatically improve the effectiveness of a punch.

 

[J77]

At one point he described how one can build up waves of energy. For example, if one is to throw a right punch, the waves might travel between the right fist and the rear-most foot. The most proficient experts can allegedly quickly produce seven waves, I think it was, which enables an incredibly powerful punch. As a black belt, my buddy could only get to three waves or so.

I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

I've never heard it mentioned in terms of waves but there is standard (fundamental) technique to produce a powerful punch by, essentially, combining an exhalation (the grunt you hear martial artists make) with the twist (or snap in a kick) at the end of the move.

In some respects, this can be thought of as getting the different parts of the move in resonance with one another.

 

[pallidin]

I've seen some really impressive Qi demonstration videos on the Web(sorry, don't know the links off-hand), but I still haven't quite determined how much of it is "real" with respect to Qi.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I think this describes Bruce Lee's famous one inch punch.

I've never heard it mentioned in terms of waves but there is standard (fundamental) technique to produce a powerful punch by, essentially, combining an exhalation (the grunt you hear martial artists make) with the twist (or snap in a kick) at the end of the move.

In some respects, this can be thought of as getting the different parts of the move in resonance with one another.

I have played around with the martial arts a little, and I think I know the feeling that he described. When at my best I did have a couple of pretty effective kicks, and there was a sense of something moving along the line of force when I threw my best kicks. I can remember noticing the effect and seeing the result that it had on the power of the kick, but I didn't know what I had done differently. I assumed at the time that this feeling was a coordinated body-wide motion, much like a baseball pitcher; maybe even that one senses the changing center of mass.

 

[scott1]

Has there ever been any secientifc reasearch on Chi? And from paraphsycologist or some "paranormal secientist" but ones that have been reconginzed and funded by univeristies.

Also would there be anything in secience that we already know that could possible explain chi>

 

[FredGarvin]

Oy. I am one serious skeptic when it comes to chi. There are thousands of chi hucksters out there. Gokul was right in pointing out that chi, ki, qi has nothing to do with electricity, but with a suppsed internal energy.

There is nothing I have seen in my experience in MA that can not be explained by physical knowledge. Bruce Lee's (and others') one inch punch is hard training and body mechanics. Guys like George Dillman who profess to be able to "take your energy" or can do no touch striking are simply delusional.

Any person that I have seen that felt they could channel their chi and then had to prove it in a test, failed miserably. Most things that are attributed to chi are really cheap party tricks and are pretty easy to explain.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

There is nothing I have seen in my experience in MA that can not be explained by physical knowledge. Bruce Lee's (and others') one inch punch is hard training and body mechanics.

Did Bruce Lee believe in Chi energy?

For me the question is not whether or not the physical feats achieved by the most proficient MAs can be explained, but rather, has it all been explained? I still have a hard time understanding how some things can be possible. And I do realize that part of the MA mysticism is smoke and mirrors. I've seen the side show tricks used at Shaolin or similar temples.

 

[Gokul43201]

Most things that are attributed to chi are really cheap party tricks and are pretty easy to explain.

One that isn't is Rei-ki. This alternative healing practice has spread pretty rapidly, and is being used in many hospitals around the world (mostly as a supplement to the regular treatment). I don't know if there have been any statistical studies to compare Reiki effects with say, placebo effects. I've heard several "miraculous" stories of successful Reiki treatments (a friend and a close relative are Reiki masters), but I'm not aware of any scientific tests.

http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/reiki_in_hospitals.html

 

[Doc Al]

For me the question is not whether or not the physical feats achieved by the most proficient MAs can be explained, but rather, has it all been explained? I still have a hard time understanding how some things can be possible. And I do realize that part of the MA mysticism is smoke and mirrors. I've seen the side show tricks used at Shaolin or similar temples.

I've been involved in the martial arts for decades and I'm still waiting for a demonstration of non-physical "chi" (along with FredGarvin, apparently). I'm talking about the BS-ers who claim that they have abilities that "go beyond" the physical.

The (non-BS) masters I know who use the term "chi" readily admit that it's "nothing more" than exquisite reflexes, balance, sensitivity, and body mechanics. Of course, that "nothing more" is plenty--some of these guys will blow your mind! But... violate the laws of physics? Get real.

I'm not sure what you mean when you ask if it "has all been explained?" Explained in what sense? (There's plenty going on in daily life that *I* can't explain, no need to look for esoterica. ) Is there something in particular that you are thinking of?

As far as Reiki goes... I remain skeptical: http://skepdic.com/reiki.html

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Well, take the breaking of bricks and boards. First of all, what is the most extreme legitimate demo that you have seen?

Also, note that I never said anything about violating the laws of physics. In fact, I said that this is not in question - by definition.

 

[CosmologyHobbyist]

I thought this item is way cool... Anyone ever use one?
http://www.kirlian.org/interesting/egely/index2.htm

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Why do you think you're not being scammed?

 

[CosmologyHobbyist]

Thought it looked cool, was wondering if anyone could verify it. Please, don't anyone spend $200 for a piece of cardboard because I mentioned it! :D

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I'm sure that Fred or Doc Al will have a word or two about devices like this.

 

[pallidin]

I thought this item is way cool... Anyone ever use one?
http://www.kirlian.org/interesting/egely/index2.htm

Looking at the pics, it appears to me that the device merely uses thermal convective influence from one's hand. Note how the hand and wrist are placed on the top and ONLY one side!
The ribbed(spiked) features of the outer armature serves to increase the effect of thermal convective influence. And, most importantly, the assymetric nature of the thermal influence(the position of hand, wrist and arm) on the device could cause it to rotate.
No "magic" here.

Scam, Scam, Scam

 

[FredGarvin]

Reiki is in the top ten scams for me. My who is involved in the alternative methods doesn't give it much weight either, mostly because there has been no serious attempt (that she knows of) to do any kind of proper study on it's effects or benefits. From people I have talked to that practice it, I am certainly not convinced. Perhaps they are their own worst PR agents. WHat I do know is that they parrot all of the things that just raise red flags for me.

 

[Gokul43201]

Reiki is in the top ten scams for me. My who is involved in the alternative methods doesn't give it much weight either, mostly because there has been no serious attempt (that she knows of) to do any kind of proper study on it's effects or benefits. From people I have talked to that practice it, I am certainly not convinced. Perhaps they are their own worst PR agents. WHat I do know is that they parrot all of the things that just raise red flags for me.

I don't think Reiki masters are scamsters. I think they do believe it works.

I went through a level I Reiki initiation several years ago. I wasn't told in advance, what to expect, so the standard trick of planting a psychological bias wasn't used. After the "initiation" where the Master supposedly opens up your chakras (or something similar) there was a brief "So, what did you experience?" session. Somewhere in the middle of this, the Master asked us whether we saw colors (I didn't see or feel anything much). Some people answered that they did see specific colors. But the fact that the color thing was raised only partway through the discussion rather than at the beginning indicates to me that this wasn't a designed scam. However, I think more people spoke of seeing colors after the idea was brought up than before. But it was a small group (around 10 people), and not suited to generating statistics.

I tend to think of most of the more popular alternative medicines as not being active scams, but being more like religion, where psychological bias is at the root of belief.

For whoever's interested, I propose as an experiment, the standard Reiki technique of "feeling one's aura". If you slowly bring your palms together, there will be a separation where you will feel what I can only describe as a very weak repulsion between your palms - as though you were compressing a bubble between your hands. It helps to close your eyes and concentrate on the feeling in your palms. Rubbing your palms before starting is also said to help. I can feel this repulsion at about about a 2 inch separation.

What is the nature of this feeling ? I'm quite sure it isn't psychological. I can, with not as good success as some others, feel another person's hand when blindfolded. I believe the sensation is based on something physical. I don't think I'm sensing a thermal gradient, though that would be a strong guess. It feels like it might be electrostatic in nature. Might it just be excess charge that builds up on your palms ? The 'rubbing palms' effect could play a role in positively influencing thermal gradients as well as excess charge.

Since Reiki Masters claim that you are feeling the Ki, I think an understanding of this sensation would go a good way towards a debunking of the Ki.

 

[Chronos]

I tinkered with voodoo once. All the people I cursed are still alive. Perhaps I should not have used a frozen chicken. On the other hand, perhaps voodoo does not work as advertised . . . That is an appealing alternative explanation. If anyone cares to prove me wrong . . . put a curse on me now. If I don't post by next friday . . . I concede.

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

Why do you think you're not being scammed?

Speaking of scamming, Derren Brown (a psychological trickster) Can do the one inch punch witout actually touching someone, he first of all gets a master to demonstrate the technique by knocking someone onto the floor with it, then uses suggestion to make people believe they are hit when the are not. This seems to work whether the person can see him or not which suggests he uses auditory queuing, and motions. Generally all his techniques are very easy to explain but none the less take deal of phsycological training there is no difference here between chi and suggestion. It's just too different mental disciplins that re highly trained.

I personally believe that it's mind over matter and nothing more amazing than that, in Derren browns case it's mind over mind though, it's quite surprising that people can react as if hit very hard when in fact they have not even been touched. But it's not supernatural or even out of the ordinary.

 

[J77]

DB also does that thing where he knocks people out over the phone, presumably only by suggestion

 

[Schrodinger's Dog]

I have complained to Channel 4 and ITV that they arrest him imediately and test whether he is fact in league with Satan and should be dealt with accordingly, however they inform me that there has not been an execution for witchcraft in 3 centuries so I'm too late, damned heathens. Can they not see that an ordinary man cannot predict which Zener cards someone will lay. Or get betting shops to pay out on losing tickets, that is the work of the Devil!

 

[gschjetne]

Force is defined by Newton's 2nd law as being equal to the rate of change of momentum, which was first published in the Philosophiae Naturalis Principia Mathematica in 1687. As far as I know the concept of Qi dates back long before this. My point is that this is metaphorical mysticism, not Physics.

Qi as a metaphor in martial arts works because it helps people achieve a lot of self-control. And self-control is probably very helpful in beating people up. But you could probably use a lot of mechanics to figure out how you can exert the greates amount of force on your opponent. But that will probably take most people the whole day. So alternative methods must be used.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I tinkered with voodoo once. All the people I cursed are still alive. Perhaps I should not have used a frozen chicken. On the other hand, perhaps voodoo does not work as advertised . . . That is an appealing alternative explanation. If anyone cares to prove me wrong . . . put a curse on me now. If I don't post by next friday . . . I concede.

My aunt has been on anti-depressants for decades but she is still depressed. My mother has at least a half dozen medical problems that no one can explain. Any given medical treatment is only effective for some percentage of those treated, and in many cases, a small percentage - others simply don't respond. There are people who die in hospitals every day and we really don't know why they died. One of the most common phrases to be heard in hospitals is: "Let's try this and see how it goes". What is this; a guessing game? Reports about cancer and lifestyle choices come out daily that conflict with whatever reports came out last year. The ideal healthy diet changes with the stroke of the hour. And in many cases, we have found that the treatment prescribed by doctors is worse than the illness.

Perhaps there are times when doctors should try frozen chickens. Having been involved with or close to the medical profession for twenty-five years, I pray to God I drop from a heart attack and never enter the medical system as a sick person.

 

[Moonbear]

I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.

The chi part seems to have been addressed, but this part hasn't. There is no electrical current running through your nervous system...at least not unless you've just stuck your finger in an electric socket. Neuronal signaling involves chemical reactions, not electrical.


As for the comments about martial arts and powerful punches/kicks, I thought that was "just" proper training to deliver the blow in a way that you don't follow through so the energy of the blow is better transferred to the target rather than absorbed by your own body. I thought it had something to do with not following through but pulling back at just the right moment. But, I know very little of the martial arts.

 

[Silverbackman]

2,500 or so years ago the Greeks and the Hindus described the universe as being composed of 4 different elements. These are: Earth, Fire, Air, and Water. We all know this is not true, but in a way it mirrors what we know now. The universe is mainly composed of 4 different main phases of matter which are similar to the classical elements. Earth can mean solid, fire can mean plasma, air can mean gas, and water can be liquid. Of course I doubt the ancients meant this but it seems like humans tend to make speculations that a partially true but not completely true until they have been shown empirically. Only then do we know their true nature.

In the past we often assumed, "It was God(s) that caused that hurricane, tornado, volcanic eruption, or those earthquakes." We now know that no supernatural force was behind natural disasters. What caused those natural disasters was not Yahweh, it was Nature. If we replace God with Nature then it all works out. Of course the ancients weren't talking about Nature but their hunch about something beyond was manifest in false premises because they did not observe what they could of tested empirically. But there is something that governs our universe: Nature.

Similarly there seems to be an energy that causes us to move. There is nothing supernatural about this. Chi, prana, mana, ect. all refer to the "force" that keeps us going. There is an "energy" that runs though our body but we shouldn't confuse this energy with the supernatural. I doubt the ancients intended this either. Rather basic "element", "gods", and "energies" have their root in the hypothesis that there are physical laws that govern the universe.

 

[FredGarvin]

I wish I had unlimited budget to go out and buy one of those wheel devices to measure my ki. I wonder why it needs it's own power?

 

[invalid]

chi vis a vis prana

I have read quite a lot about chi/prana (or the Force in Star Wars). I believe there is probably validity to it but you certainly won't need some $200 device to use/develop it. (Take up Kundilini Yoga instead!)

A good overview of it is a book: Kundalini, Evolution & Enlightenment
Editor: John White.

If, at it's foundation, the universe is pure consciousness - this would explain ki/prana.

 

[Doc Al]

If, at it's foundation, the universe is pure consciousness - this would explain ki/prana.

Oh yeah, that explains everything...

 

[Silverbackman]

Oh yeah, that explains everything...

It could be, we really don't know what fundamental conscious awareness looks like ;).

 

[acceler8]

Chi is a real force in my opinion. I believe there is a parallel explanation for everything, like yin and yang, where physics is the yang and karma is the yin.

 

[Doc Al]

total consciousness...

Reminds me of one of my favorite scenes from the classic "CaddyShack", where Carl Spackler (played by Bill Murray) says:

So I jump ship in Hong Kong and make my way over to Tibet, and I get on as a looper at a course over in the Himalayas. A looper, you know, a caddy, a looper, a jock. So, I tell them I'm a pro jock, and who do you think they give me? The Dalai Lama, himself. Twelfth son of the Lama. The flowing robes, the grace, bald... striking. So, I'm on the first tee with him. I give him the driver. He hauls off and whacks one - big hitter, the Lama - long, into a ten-thousand foot crevasse, right at the base of this glacier. Do you know what the Lama says? Gunga galunga... gunga, gunga-galunga. So we finish the eighteenth and he's going to stiff me. And I say, "Hey, Lama, hey, how about a little something, you know, for the effort, you know." And he says, "Oh, uh, there won't be any money, but when you die, on your deathbed, you will receive total consciousness." So I got that goin' for me, which is nice.​

 

[acceler8]

what a great scene! i haven't watched caddyshack in a while! oh that naughty lama!

xxxx Gareth

 

[Ivan Seeking]

So then should we assume that in fact martial artists cannot explain their own feats of strength and skill? We have tried to have this discussion several times, but no one seems willing to take on direct questions. This usually happens when people are unable to answer those questions.

 

[Doc Al]

So then should we assume that in fact martial artists cannot explain their own feats of strength and skill? We have tried to have this discussion several times, but no one seems willing to take on direct questions. This usually happens when people are unable to answer those questions.

Not sure what kind of explanation you are looking for. Like revealing the secret of some magic trick? (Of course, in some cases that's exactly what it is. ) I challenge just about any high-level athlete to "explain" how they do what they do.

But, on the other hand, I know what you mean. What would be really cool would be if someone would be interested enough to do some detailed scientific study on some of the more esoteric things. (Some of this has been done. You can find a few research articles modeling the body during a "karate strike" and attempting to explain its power through physics.) Until then, practitioners will have to just limp along, learning by doing (and thinking and questioning).

I don't see any value in introducing the notion of "chi" or "ki" except metaphorically.

You had asked about breaking skills earlier. Here are my thoughts on that. I've seen many demos of breaking skills over the years. (Even did a few myself, back in the day.) As you can expect, there are many ways to "cheat": using spacers, baking boards to dry them out, cherry-picking softer bricks, and more. Nonetheless, many breaking stunts are quite legit. I've seen a guy break two baseball bats with his shins. (Sure, at the thin part... but still.) A good friend of mine (a true master) routinely used to do speed breaks like so: Stand 3 bricks on end on a table, then slice all three with one (fast) edge of hand blow. Pretty impressive! (I routinely did a much easier version of that as a demo when I taught physics 101 years ago. I would hold two or three boards vertically in one hand (by the edge, hanging down) then break them with an inside edge of hand blow. The trick? Think speed!) Yes, you have to know exactly what to hit with and where.

Apparently the human body is much more resiliant than one might think. But there's usually a price to be paid. Most of the people I know who have done hard style training for years (I'm talking about hitting hard objects, supposedly to toughen every conceivable striking surface) have paid a severe price. Most--not all--have destroyed themselves in the process of training. One of my instructors (another true master--I don't toss that term out lightly) has hands (highly arthritic) that would freak out a normal person--they just aren't human. But this is his life, the path he has chosen. Getting hit by this man is like getting hit with a steel bar--he would blow throw most people like tissue paper.

Personally, I do not think that excessive conditioning (of striking surfaces) is necessary or even useful. Hitting a live target is so much different that hitting a hard, immoveable target, that there is little carryover for most people. Much more useful is to be able to drop your weight into a moving target from any angle with essentially no windup. How to do that? It's a skill, like any other. It involves hyperbalance (training the proprioceptors to maintain balance under wildly changing circumstances, so that you are always in balance), balancing relaxation and tension of the appropriate muscles at the right time, proper body alignment, being able to drop your weight (rebounding energy from a rooted stance) and redirect the energy into your target. I admit, these verbal descriptions are pretty lame. One master I train with is so good at this that it almost gives meaning to "chi". He can, from just about any position, balanced on one leg, with his hand just touching you, slam you so hard just by dropping his weight (almost imperceptible) that you are tossed back across the room (if he wants to be nice) or that you get your chest caved in (not so nice).

I hope this helps a little. (As far as the more esoteric "martial arts"--like folks who claim to be able to retract their testicles or take full-on shots to the throat--beats me! I've yet to meet such people in person.)

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Thanks Doc Al.

To a limit I can accept that if one is willing to endure the physical abuse, some breaking demos, taking some blows to some soft areas, etc, can reasonably be explained.

I guess the real problem is in differentiating between genuine demos and magic tricks. One of the most impressive breaking stunts that I've seen that appeared to be legit, was done by some nth degree black belt [n large] who sliced a pile of bricks in half that...geez...was perhaps ten bricks tall or more? I've seen similar demos using cinder blocks, boards, and probably a few other things. In all cases, the first thought for me is that there simply is not enough bone and muscle in the hand and wrists to explain in a trivial way, how this happens. Also, were they to attempt any of these extreme demos, I am sure that most any untrained person would simply tear muscle tissue and snap bones.

Again, I don't know which demos might be tricks, but like you, I know for a fact that to some degree these sorts of things really happen. Also, when I say that we can't explain this in a trivial manner, I mean only that there may be mechanics or even physiology involved that we don't understand. If some of these guys can actually take hard blows to the throat, I think we would all have a really hard time explaining this.

So there are two, maybe three issues here:

First, what are the most extreme legitimate stunts to be found.

Next, can we explain how the body endures these stunts? I suspect that we cannot explain [without arm waiving] the most extreme genuine stunts performed by true masters. To me, this suggests that there may be something to the idea of the Chi [whatever that is]. To me, Chi may may simply be a name for an unexplained phenomenon. A stack of bricks is very real.

Finally, if there is a mystery, whether or not the popular interpretations of the Chi are correct, is yet another [set of] question.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Perhaps a related conversation is that so called feats of superhuman strength, such as in this story:

Most of the nine officers who witnessed or took part in the five-minute attempt to subdue Le Menn described the Frenchman to jurors as a madman who growled, screamed nonsense and had the ability to throw officers around a cell with superhuman strength.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2001/Feb-25-Sun-2001/news/15519751.html

And of course, episodes of superhuman strength are also associated with drugs.

Although PCP abusers valued it for its psychedelic properties, the terrifying hallucinations and sensory numbing it induced often led those under its influence to display violent and erratic behavior, including superhuman strength and imperviousness to painful stimuli along with telltale ataxia and nystagmus

http://www.psy.psychiatryonline.org/cgi/content/full/40/4/356

There is a story in my own family about a great-aunt who allegedly carried a refrigerator - her first, and around the time of the great depression - from her burning house. As the story goes, she was a woman of small stature who normally couldn't begin to move something so heavy.

These sorts of stories are fairly common. To what extent any are verified is unknown to me. Also, the definition of "superhuman" is obviously a problem. I don't see that threshold quantified anywhere in the CRC.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

This may be the guy that I saw. It has been a long time so I have no way to be sure.
See the photo at the bottom of the page where this person allegedly breaks sixteen bricks.
http://www.ironpalm.com/Brown.html

From this page
http://www.recordholders.org/en/list/karate.html

I have no idea what might be credible.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

I took the liberty to contact James Patrick Lacy who is cited as a 7th generation Daoist Palms Grandmaster. As nearly as I can tell, this gentleman is one of a small group of world class elites - a grandmaster in a subdiscipline of Kung Fu. Mr Lacy was kind enough to give a very thoughtful and seemingly honest answer regarding his perception and understanding of the so called Chi and the role it plays in the martial arts.

Since he is a philosopher and not a scientist, and since I asked what he thinks of all this, even though not entirely appropriate for this forum, out of respect I will quote his answer in its entirety. As is seen in the first paragraph, obviously religion plays a large role in Mr. Lacy's life, and I didn't want to pick and choose what to quote. but please do not consider this as an invitation to engage in religious debates as they are off limits in all PF forums. Mr Lacy continues to talk about his view of the martial arts and offers some interesting insights. And again, the point is to investigate the reality of broken bricks.

In the end, I'm still getting a mixed message.

Jesus controls all the forces of nature in our local universe – whether living or non-living. God is love, thus all that happens with every molecule in our universe is purposed for love. We live in a welcoming universe of progress. This is the setting from my subjective experience. Experience is always our best litmus as to our own way of viewing God’s love. As scientists, religionists and philosophers, we need to realize our dependence on each other to in essence; prove God as best we can. I acknowledge your groups purpose in getting to the truth. Let me take a moment here to explain my view of truth since the One God Concept, as we know it today evolved from the times of Melchizedek and Abraham, around 2000 BC. Missionaries from the far east went to study at Jerusalem, then know as Salem. The Yellow race or founders of Taoism (Daoism) focused on those teachings that concerned the universal principle of positive and aggressive – and negative and retiring. From these they created their cosmogony that dictated the principles of healing and fighting. The Chinese are the most warlike and at the same time the most peaceful of the colored races. The way the world has explained chi, ki, prana, mana or life force has in my opinion lacked the true core meaning that we all can relate to, and as far as I am concerned what we all can relate to are truisms that we can see similarities over differences about. I operate as a long time liver of The Urantia Book. My religion is the religion of the “I am” and is based on the principle for me that only Jesus is the True Master. Now that you know my position in the big picture, let me address you question more specifically.

All feats of so-called chi are tricks that can be reproduced if the demonstrator is willing to be honest. For instance, you mentioned Ed’s stack of bricks without spacers. Ask yourself if it could be possible to pick, stack, age, dry or otherwise have inner knowledge of the substance so as to provide an advantage. Even if the practitioner does have these special insights for advantage, it is still a ‘calculated’ risk to be appreciated. When the breaker does the demonstration for power over others or glory for themselves, they are practicing evil. Secrets do not advance ethics. Let us take coconuts for example. I can stack three coconuts and pretty much be able to break the top of three, middle of three or bottom of three. I could be secretive and let you figure it out, or I could save you the time and tell you that it is all in the experience of guessing which coconut is harder. The hard will break the softer under it, or if you put the softer on top, it will break first. The energies of occultism are real to a point. Real occultists or martial artists like myself welcome the grafting of science on to our older pagan science. We do this with oriental medicine. The more of your group that analyze and ruthlessly scrutinize The Urantia Book, the easier it will be for you to set the trend as pioneers wanting to put to science not just chi, but drugs and other things. It is sort of like going to the doctor who tells you your readings are high for possible prostrate cancer. Someone like me says thanks for the diagnosis, but I can heal myself. In other words, we are our own physicians.

I am the only martial artist in the world who has defined chi as basically faith and courage training. All the lessons of life for any of us come from these. Imagine being deaf, dumb and blind. You could still hear God’s guidance and hear celestial music. This would be the challenge: To realize we all will have to learn to cloth ourselves with our thoughts as we progress the mansions worlds. Though by thought – “turn on, tune in and take control.” We cannot really read each other’s minds and complete understanding of the sexes is unobtainable. We are stuck on a world that must now look for similarities over differences. When I break coconuts between pillows, it is basically a slam break. When I use a support hand it is basically a lift break. A coconut left in the sun will hairline break. Do brick breakers share this much? If chi is energy, then the debate is who created the energy and what does science call it. I think science will prove God in time. We cannot debunk faith and courage, thus we cannot debunk a person using any math leverage to accomplish anything. The debunkers job is to duplicate what the breaker does explaining it as I did with coconuts. That said; can you get hurt trying to duplicate the ‘tricks’? – most definitely! Moreover, therein lies the humor; to even try to duplicate the fakirs, jugglers, mesmerizes etc., is often most definitely a test of faith and courage.

Since life is progress but there is nothing new under the sun, culture must be learned each generation anew. Magic and Daoism are intertwined because Magic was pre-science. Much like our ancestors taming fire, we can use our faith and courage, or knowledge of “chi” to more deeply explain Jesus’ ultimate control of nature’s forces, or we can deny Jesus. In my opinion if we choose the later, it is we ourselves that shall be embarrassed by Him.

OK guys – you are the best and I am the worst, but hopefully this will vibrate with a third of you and the other two thirds hopefully can learn something of value from a fool. Our country and the world depend on you to advance all technology and the language of science so as to ‘prove’ things from the past that might with tweaking prove useful according to the all important customs, mores and traditions of our times. Our greatest challenge is to understand this qigong movement. How much more powerful would it be with the realization of Pentecost and Holy Spirit. I call that super consciousness rather than subconscious reaction. Rapid reasoning, quick judgment and discernment of spirit. In my humble opinion, a person connected to Holy Spirit could never lose a fight even to the most skilled martial artist. The Chinese used simple magic and that is how they attempted to explain any martial phenomenon. I think in large the white man shares much of their soul and sentiment.

Spirit and Will are the same. Courage is always tempered with reason. Some of my breaks have been absolutely phenomenal to me personally and done with no trickery. Other times I do creative breaks that push the limit of moving that chi or faith and courage to different areas of the body. The mind is not subject to gravity, thus the universe communicates with itself through reflectivity process. No one should be mystified by chi. Certainly the Chinese have no monopoly on it, nor do the Hindus, as Melchizedek (the first High Priest of Salem and Abraham’s mentor,) was the first to teach it to missionaries who traveled to Salem to learn and then obviously took what was useful for their purposes and ability to understand the big picture. I want everyone to ponder how Jesus parted the crown trying to walk him off a cliff. There are mental chi, physical and spiritual chi uses and we all literally use the concept of faith and courage training daily. A man who can support his family is using chi daily in a successful way.

This took me an hour to pen off the tip of my head. It does not even scratch the surface, but it does address I hope certain aspects of chi perhaps not frequently talked about in this way. May you all through sharing your personal experiences help further the cause of truth!

Sincerely

James Patrick Lacy

www.ironpalm.com

Many thanks to Mr Lacy for his kind response.

I also found this:
http://www.karatebreaking.com/materials.html

 

[rcgldr]

Well, I'm a Chi atheist. Put Bruce Lee, Chuck Norris, or any of those self-proclaimed "Chi masters", at their prime against any top ranked heavyweight UFC fighter, and the "Chi masters" would be quickly dispatched, because the UFC fighters train every day against live opponents, build up optimal strength and endurance for their weight class, and study all the various martial arts forms to be able to deal with any situation that develops during a fight.

It all boils down to whose the best fighter at the time, combined with some luck (like who hits who first with a good shot, or gets a good submission hold).

Punching and pulling back doesn't inflict more damage, but it does provide for a better defense against a counter punch. Twisting your fist while punching to a soft area of an opponents body may increase the effect.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Are you sure that UFC fighters haven't learned to use their own Chi? Perhaps they just call it something else; such as being "in the zone".

 

[Ivan Seeking]

Perhaps a related idea?

Performance Related Emotional States in Sport: A Qualitative Analysis

Yuri L. Hanin

Abstract: In this paper, I provide a brief overview of the sports-specific individualized approach (termed—the Individual Zones of Optimal Functioning [IZOF] model) as an action-oriented framework for qualitative analysis of performance related emotional states. First, I highlight the issue of multidimensionality and introduce five basic dimensions (penta-basis) to describe performance-related emotional states. These dimensions include form, content/quality, intensity, time, and context. Four major IZOF-based predictions of emotion-performance relationships focus on interindividual variability of optimal emotion intensity and content, the in-out of the zone notion, interactive effects of emotions enhancing and impairing performance, and bi-directionality of emotion-performance relationships. Then, I describe several projects that use different data collection techniques for assessment of idiosyncratic emotion content. These include interviews, individualized emotion profiling, metaphor-generation method, and narratives. Future research directions from individualized and discursive perspectives are suggested and implications for combining qualitative and quantitative approaches in the analysis of performance related states are discussed. [continued]

http://www.qualitative-research.net/fqs-texte/1-03/1-03hanin-e.htm

 

[rcgldr]

Are you sure that UFC fighters haven't learned to use their own Chi?

Their belief in Chi would depend on what martial arts training they had. As far as actually using Chi, I don't see any evidence of it. Some Chi masters claim they can't be picked up or thrown, and I've never seen any evidence of this in the octagon. I've never seen any evidence of super-human punches, such as short punches doing any real damage during a ground and pound sequence. All of the knock-out punches I've seen were just good shots.

I knew a 6th blackbelt martial artist who runs a self defense school (our common interest was radio control gliders of all things, he was on the USA rc glider F3J team one year). They don't teach Chi, but points out that any form of training involves training the mind as well as muscles. He pointed out that in cases like Israel martial arts training for their soldiers, that if Chi training provided an advantage, they would teach it, but they don't. As for my own personal experience, I took Taekwando for a few months twice (in both cases the schools closed down, and I lost interest), it's mostly about kicks and some punches while standing up, a limited sub-set of martial-arts.

My belief is there is no magical mental force going on, and just like any sport, it boils down to proper training, and in the case of full-contact sports, those with good power to weight ratios, and the ability to take a punch in the heavier classes (a process of elimination more than training when it comes to taking head shots, some fighters, like Muhammed Ali in his prime, could take punches much better than other humans with similar training, on the other hand you have Thomas Hearns, who could punch very hard, but as he stepped up in weight class to middle weight, couldn't take the punches of a Marvin Hagler).

 

[Ivan Seeking]

My belief is there is no magical mental force going on

This gets to the heart of the distinction I am making and your interpretation of it. First of all, we already had a grandmaster tell us that magic tricks are used in some cases. So I think we all agree that we're not talking about magic. But as with the mixed message that I got from Mr. Lacy, I get the same one from virtually everyone that discusses this subject. And IMO its not limited to the martial arts. IIRC, there was a book called "The Art of Tennis" that discussed "the zone" at great length. Almost any athlete will tell you of a certain state of mind that goes along with their most "phenomenal" performances. And I too know this feeling. My suggestion is that this may all be part of a complex picture, some of which is interpreted as the Chi, but not that we are limited to the popular or ancient interpretations of what this may be.

I like to think of it this way. Back when it was believed that disease was caused by evil spirits, in the most general sense, in some cases they were right. To me, evil spirits is a pretty good 13th century name for bacterial infections. In a similar light, I wonder if Chi is just a name for a complex physical phenomenon.

Magic has nothing to do with this discussion. We all agree that all real things are real. If Chi is a name for something real, then clearly it is not magic.

 

[rcgldr]

there was a book called "The Art of Tennis" that discussed "the zone" at great length.

In my opinion, being in the "zone" is both physical and mental. Being in the zone occurs due a combination of things within your body so that your outputs are optimal, for example, your muscles responding exactly in the way you want them to. One factor is strength conditioning, if you're a little weak, it will take more input to get the same output, if you're a little strong, it takes less input to get the same output.

Another factors is flexibility in your muscles; your muscle flexibility also plays a factor in how your muscles respond to inputs. A bit off topic here, but I've seen a few skilled martial artists who are pathetic at accurately kicking a high target until they've stretched and warmed up.

In the case of a sport like tennis, or table tennis (which I'm more familiar with), observing and prediciting the path of the ball is also better on some days than others. Again, I think this is a case of bio-physics, not even the level concentration. A person's hand-eye coordination is just better on some days than others, probably because of the proper amount of nutrients, water, and other similar factors.

Another factor is lack of distractions, such as nervousness. Some people learn to control this, while others just learn to compensate for the nervousness. Referring to tennis, Borg seem to play best when he was calm, while MacEnroe seemed to be able to play well when very agitated.

When I've been in the "zone", it was when I was well warmed up, and a bit fatigued, with moderate respiration, sweat and temperature. The fatigue factor affected both my mental state (more relaxed and controlled) as well as my physical state (the way my muscles responded). There's also a time factor factor as I continued to get "dialed" in during play.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

As a sidebar, artificial Chi.

The goal of the Exoskeletons for Human Performance Augmentation Program is to develop devices and machines that will increase the speed, strength, and endurance of soldiers in combat environments. Projects will lead to self-powered, controlled, and wearable exoskeletal devices and/or machines and demonstrations of their utility in military applications. [continued]

http://www.darpa.mil/dso/thrust/matdev/ehpa.htm

 

[arivero]

My feel of Chi is that of the electric current you can feel at the extremities when you put some stress. The easiest way to feel it is to bend the wrist so that the hand is ninety degrees up and then to imagine you are pushing some block behind you. As you extend the arm (keeping the hand 90 degrees up) you can feel a sort of electricity in the palm. With training, you get this feeling even without putting stress in your muscles, so this Chi gives you an extra perception of your body position.

If this is the Chi, then it is not exactly physical but biophysical. And it does not seem related to Kundalini, by the way (at least not to the upwards flow as I remember to feel it).