- #316
nismaratwork
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Doc Al said:An excellent essay about self-deception in the martial arts. Thanks for posting!
:rofl:
Doc Al said:An excellent essay about self-deception in the martial arts. Thanks for posting!
Galteeth said:Relevant, and in my opinion, interesting essay about the martial arts.
http://www.artsci.wustl.edu/~grussell/epistemicviciousness.pdf
...epistemic viciousness is the possession of vices that make one bad at acquiring true beliefs...
Dryerasethis said:Qi, Ki, or Chi to me is simply a mastery of motion in your own body. Nothing mystical about it, there are a lot of people who think its magic and like to claim hocus pocus, but the actual examples of it's use (Throwing a powerful strike, or deflecting a force) simply demonstrate your body exerting as much force as you are capable of making it do so.
So here's a question for you, do you think the average person when trying to exert as much force as they can through some means, is actually exerting as much force as their body is capable of producing? I don't think so.
Adrenaline is a perfect example of our body reacting in a way that enhances it's own physical prowess. Maybe Qi, Ki, or Chi practices actually just give the body a dose of epinephrine, maybe they somehow encourage your body to be more mechanically sound in its motion. Hard to say, but I do know there is SOMETHING that makes a man who got caught in a rockslide while rock climbing bench press a 500kg rock off of him.
nismaratwork said:Reiki is a good example of Ki as magic, in the minds of some.
Line said:In Chinese philosophy they talk of a force called Chi. It's an electrical current that runs through your body,everything around you, and Earth.
I'm thinking maybe they weren't wrong. There is an electrical current that runs through you. It's the currents of your nervouce system. his may be what they were talking about.
Also there is a current that runs through your body. Just like there's 14 pounds of air per sqaure ince of your body there's lots ofelectrcity running through us. We're used to it so we don't feel anything. I'm wondering could this be CHi also.
kramer733 said:qi doesn't exist. I'm currently doing bjj and i'll be honest. It's all mental strength. When you have mental strength, you can do anything. At one point, i was at the top of my jiu jitsu game and i was taking down people who had 50lb+ advantage and all i did was believe in myself. Now I lost that "will" and can't do it again.
ZapperZ said:How many of those people do you think are "physicists"?
Zz.
nismaratwork said:...And even if they are, how free they are to speak their mind. Striking a balance like that can be very smart, but in private...?
Alfrez said:Or biophysicists because physicists don't usually handle biological works but only on particle accelerators.
In the experiments, the chi emitted can even allegedly affect radioactivity rates. We know it is impossible because quantum probability can't be affected by anything.. unless the unknown qi force introduced right to the atoms has additional interaction Hamiltonian dynamics that can affect the mass or nuclear characteristics of the particle ensemble.
Our natural reaction is to refute it a priori but elsewhere, experiments also show radioactivity can be affected.. so maybe United States biophysicists must at least try one experiment and overwhelmingly refute it by empirical data... not by a priori.
ZapperZ said:But are you still insisting on calling these authors as "China physicists"?
Zz.
Alfrez said:Or biophysicists because physicists don't usually handle biological works but only on particle accelerators.
In the experiments, the chi emitted can even allegedly affect radioactivity rates. We know it is impossible because quantum probability can't be affected by anything.. unless the unknown qi force introduced right to the atoms has additional interaction Hamiltonian dynamics that can affect the mass or nuclear characteristics of the particle ensemble.
Our natural reaction is to refute it a priori but elsewhere, experiments also show radioactivity can be affected.. so maybe United States biophysicists must at least try one experiment and overwhelmingly refute it by empirical data... not by a priori.
Alfrez said:Guys. Pseudosciences and conspiracies are not tolerated in this forum, and for perfectly good reason which we all agree as it is anti-science. Do you think chi or qi is a pseudoscience? I need to know before I go on lest this thread get closed up for moderation permanently or get banned.
Doc Al said:I've been involved in the martial arts for decades and I'm still waiting for a demonstration of non-physical "chi" (along with FredGarvin, apparently). I'm talking about the BS-ers who claim that they have abilities that "go beyond" the physical.
The (non-BS) masters I know who use the term "chi" readily admit that it's "nothing more" than exquisite reflexes, balance, sensitivity, and body mechanics. Of course, that "nothing more" is plenty--some of these guys will blow your mind! But... violate the laws of physics? Get real.
Proton Soup said:lol, all that gobbledygook disappeared.
Proton Soup said:Alfrez, you're just making a religious argument. you might as well be talking about the human spirit or soul. and perhaps that is what you're saying. but until you build some machine that manipulates this chi force, that's all it will be, religious belief.
Alfrez said:Or those who already have the equipment(s). Come on. I challenge you all to do experiments with me. I need very sensitive equipments... even those used in neutrino experiments are better. I will emit the chi and you can see the results.
berkeman said:Can you point to any credible experiments that quantitatively show a physical effect from chi on an instrument? If not, and you want to come up with one, that's really on you and not on us.
My impression is that the chi-improvements in medical procedures that you describe are in line with the placebo effect, which we know is very real. There are different ways to elicit the placebo effect, and claims of chi for healing are just another way, IMO.
Alfrez said:Here:
http://www.accessv.com/~yuan/yansci/time/2002_YanXin_Qigong_JSE.pdf
In china, there are many experiments like this. Unfortunately. Scientists in the US won't even do the experiments so how can they see the results if they won't even try it. Unfortunately (again), US physicists are expert in theoretical physics. So US physicists are the ones who can derive at the complete theory of Chi, which may be related to unknown physics that can be related to the real Theory of Everything. But they ignored it and left the understanding and investigations to other countries not expert in it.
Btw.. to talk about Chi, one must always talk of the Bioplasmic Body. Because it is the bioplasmic body in man that receives and use Chi, which may be akin to some bosons. In Pranic Healing, we fix disorders in the bioplasmic body. I personally know many patients who have defective bioplasmic body (they hear voices and stuff) who went to many doctors abroad and different countries and can't be cured. Then we detected their bioplasmic body is broken. We use a kind of chi to knit it. Then the hearing voices suddenly stop within the day (after years of hearing it) and the person gets back to normal the next time. So bioplasmic body has
something to do with our qualia or consciousness and its container in the human body.
I know it's difficult to prove it. China scientists are not revolutionary enough like US scientists in theoretical physics. While US scientists don't have access or better yet, ignore many stuff that doesn't have to do with the Standard Model, hence both of them can't solve the mystery of the Bioplasmic Body and Chi.
In a few years after the results of the Large Hadron Collider give us clue to the right physics of the unification, it may give us a clue of what bioplasmic body and chi could be.
Right now. We can do nothing much . Although we can do experiments like the china experiments. I'm looking for the equipments to do that. When I do. I'll present it to James Randi and win a million dollars.
berkeman said:Sorry, you posted that link earlier (I think that post got deleted). I'm asking for a link to an experiment with electronic instrumentation that shows some physical manifestation of chi. That's a pretty straightforward request. Why are you having difficulty complying?
Alfrez said:http://www.reiki.org/reikinews/sciencemeasures.htm
Oh yes, SQUID (Superconducting Quantum Interference Device) magnetometer was used to detect the properties of chi. "Therapeutic Touch" involves chi projection from hands as described in the link above quoted thus:
...
jarednjames said:Can you point us to any papers on the subject, not web pages from 'believer' websites?
Alfrez said:Oh here it is:
Zimmerman J 1990 Laying-on-of-hands, healing and theraphetic touch: a testable theory. BEMI Currents. Journal of Bio-Electro-Magnetics Institute 24:8-17 [Available from Dr. John Zimmerman, 2490 West Moana Lane, Reno, Nevada, 89509-3936, USA. See also an article published in 1985: New technologies detect effects of healing hands. Brain/Mind Bulletin 10 (September 30):3]
jarednjames said:So the only way I can get this is to write to the guy? Is there no link to it online?
Alfrez said:If we discover the physics of Chi. It would advance humanity a thousand fold. And the world will never be the same again.