Is internal energy really decreasing in situation 2?

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The discussion centers on the application of the law of conservation of energy in two scenarios involving a block on a rough surface. In Situation 1, the block's internal energy increases due to work done by friction, aligning with the conservation principle. However, in Situation 2, where an applied force and friction are both present, the initial calculations suggested a decrease in internal energy, which raised questions about the validity of the applied equations. After recalculating, it was clarified that the change in internal energy is influenced by both the applied force and friction, leading to a better understanding of energy transfer in the system. Ultimately, the conversation highlights the importance of correctly applying energy conservation principles when multiple forces act on a system.
  • #31
vcsharp2003 said:
So, internal energy would not change according to the thermodynamics equation you gave. Is that true?
Well, since the interface has no mass, it would have no internal energy (or internal energy change)..
 
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  • #32
TSny said:
You have two non-conservative forces in your situation 2: The applied force of 200 N and the friction force. As in section 8.5 of your link, you can start with the work-energy theorem: Wnet = ΔKE. Thus,
Wapp + Wfric + Wgrav = ΔKE. You don't have any work done by gravity, but I included it for generality.

Note that the change in internal energy is due to the work done by friction: Wfric = -ΔUint. The work done by gravity can be written as Wgrav = -ΔUg. So, you get

Wapp = ΔKE + ΔUg +ΔUint

If you take the block, table, and Earth as the "system", then this says that the work done on the system by the applied force equals the change in the total energy of the system.
I just found that the link I pointed to (http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy121/LectureNotes/Chapter08/Chapter8.html#Heading9) stated under section 8.6 that the system being considered should be an isolated system for Wfric = -ΔUint else Wfric ≠-ΔUint.

In situations 1 and 2, that would mean we take block + table + Earth as the system when applying first law of thermodynamics and in that case we could say with certainty that Wfric = -ΔUint for block + table + Earth system. If we take only block then in realistic conditions there will be some heat transfers across the block boundary which would make the system a closed system and not an isolated system, and the same would be also true for block + table system.
 
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  • #33
vcsharp2003 said:
I just found that the link I pointed to (http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy121/LectureNotes/Chapter08/Chapter8.html#Heading9) stated under section 8.6 that the system being considered should be an isolated system for Wfric = -ΔUint else Wfric ≠-ΔUint.

In situations 1 and 2, that would mean we take block + table + Earth as the system when applying first law of thermodynamics and in that case we could say with certainty that Wfric = -ΔUint for block + table + Earth system. If we take only block then in realistic conditions there will be some heat transfers across the block boundary which would make the system a closed system and not an isolated system, and the same would be also true for block + table system.
This is all exactly the consequence of the frictional heat distribution equation I gave in post #29.
 
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