Is internal energy really decreasing in situation 2?

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Homework Help Overview

The discussion revolves around the law of conservation of energy, particularly in two situations involving a block on a rough surface. The original poster is attempting to understand the implications of non-conservative forces on the internal energy of the block, questioning the decrease in internal energy in one scenario despite an applied force.

Discussion Character

  • Exploratory, Conceptual clarification, Assumption checking

Approaches and Questions Raised

  • Participants discuss the calculations of work done by friction and the applied force in both situations. They question the application of the conservation of energy equation and the assumptions made regarding heat flow and system boundaries.

Discussion Status

There is ongoing dialogue about the correctness of the calculations and the interpretation of the conservation of energy equation. Some participants have pointed out potential errors in the original poster's reasoning and calculations, while others have suggested alternative formulations of the energy conservation principle.

Contextual Notes

Participants are examining the effects of non-conservative forces and the assumptions regarding heat transfer in the context of the problem. There is a focus on ensuring that all forces acting on the block are accounted for in the energy calculations.

  • #31
vcsharp2003 said:
So, internal energy would not change according to the thermodynamics equation you gave. Is that true?
Well, since the interface has no mass, it would have no internal energy (or internal energy change)..
 
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  • #32
TSny said:
You have two non-conservative forces in your situation 2: The applied force of 200 N and the friction force. As in section 8.5 of your link, you can start with the work-energy theorem: Wnet = ΔKE. Thus,
Wapp + Wfric + Wgrav = ΔKE. You don't have any work done by gravity, but I included it for generality.

Note that the change in internal energy is due to the work done by friction: Wfric = -ΔUint. The work done by gravity can be written as Wgrav = -ΔUg. So, you get

Wapp = ΔKE + ΔUg +ΔUint

If you take the block, table, and Earth as the "system", then this says that the work done on the system by the applied force equals the change in the total energy of the system.
I just found that the link I pointed to (http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy121/LectureNotes/Chapter08/Chapter8.html#Heading9) stated under section 8.6 that the system being considered should be an isolated system for Wfric = -ΔUint else Wfric ≠-ΔUint.

In situations 1 and 2, that would mean we take block + table + Earth as the system when applying first law of thermodynamics and in that case we could say with certainty that Wfric = -ΔUint for block + table + Earth system. If we take only block then in realistic conditions there will be some heat transfers across the block boundary which would make the system a closed system and not an isolated system, and the same would be also true for block + table system.
 
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  • #33
vcsharp2003 said:
I just found that the link I pointed to (http://teacher.pas.rochester.edu/phy121/LectureNotes/Chapter08/Chapter8.html#Heading9) stated under section 8.6 that the system being considered should be an isolated system for Wfric = -ΔUint else Wfric ≠-ΔUint.

In situations 1 and 2, that would mean we take block + table + Earth as the system when applying first law of thermodynamics and in that case we could say with certainty that Wfric = -ΔUint for block + table + Earth system. If we take only block then in realistic conditions there will be some heat transfers across the block boundary which would make the system a closed system and not an isolated system, and the same would be also true for block + table system.
This is all exactly the consequence of the frictional heat distribution equation I gave in post #29.
 
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