Is Marijuana Decriminalization Overdue?

[mbisCool]

First off let me state I would like to keep this within the forum guidelines.

In essence I'm trying to start a discussion on the topic. I would like to hear your honest opinions and rational. Are the penalties for marijuana possession/use within reason? Should marijuana be decriminalized?

 

[Proton Soup]

i'm not sure the penalties are that harsh in most places for possession of small amounts. and i think the criminalization is a bit silly. but i also don't expect to see it change anytime soon. law enforcement loves the stuff. all you need to start searching people is to say "i smell dope" or "my dog smells dope". so it's a great excuse and it's not going away.

 

[wildman]

My state, Arizona, is imploding from a lack of funds for its justice system. It is talking about not having enough money to properly prosecute murders, rapists and car thieves. At the same time, it is spending millions and millions to chase after pot heads who are doing no one but themselves any harm. This is stupid to say the least. Legalize it and tax it. Then it won't be a drain on the state, but a positive source of funds.

(For the record, I don't smoke pot)

 

[turbo]

It is legal to cultivate and possesses in Maine, as long as it is prescribed by a doctor for medicinal purposes. HOWEVER, even if you do everything by the book, you can still be prosecuted under Federal laws. A local DA has been harassing a grower for (legally) supplying marijuana to a chronically-ill person, until recently a judge ruled in favor of the grower. Essentially, the DA disagreed with the medical marijuana law, and since he could not prosecute the sick person for possessing and using it, he tried to cut off the source by prosecuting the grower. What a waste of our tax dollars.

 

[Topher925]

THC is available in pill form, you don't need to smoke the Mary Jane for medicinal purposes anymore.

I personally don't care if people smoke it as long as they are not hurting anyone else. If reefer was legalized, I think it should be under strict standards, similar to alcohol. Something tells me that if it was legalized, we would probably have a lot more darwin awards every year which might not be a bad thing.

 

[mgb_phys]

The UK just increased it's criminalization. An indpendant report showed it was less dangerous and the government upgraded it to class 'B' on the same day.
With the quote "we can't wait for the scientific evidence - we must act to protect the public"

Of course given the behavior of the current crop of politicians who have so far admitted to using it in their youth there would seem to be strong evidence that it causes long term psychological damage.

 

[gravenewworld]

THC is available in pill form, you don't need to smoke the Mary Jane for medicinal purposes anymore.

I personally don't care if people smoke it as long as they are not hurting anyone else. If reefer was legalized, I think it should be under strict standards, similar to alcohol. Something tells me that if it was legalized, we would probably have a lot more darwin awards every year which might not be a bad thing.

That doesn't mean anything. Pill form THC is delivered to the body differently than inhaled smoke which means it may lose efficacy. How a drug is delivered is always an extremely important part of the over all picture of the pharmacological effect of a drug. In fact, patients who take marinol report more acute psychotropic side effects from marinol than when they smoke MJ. There are also other active ingredients in MJ that have medicinal effects like cannabidiol.

 

[wolram]

The UK just increased it's criminalization. An indpendant report showed it was less dangerous and the government upgraded it to class 'B' on the same day.
With the quote "we can't wait for the scientific evidence - we must act to protect the public"

Of course given the behavior of the current crop of politicians who have so far admitted to using it in their youth there would seem to be strong evidence that it causes long term psychological damage.

 

[Evo]

I think one of the "fears" is that it *is* intoxicating and where you can have some kind of control over who can buy alcohol, there is nothing stopping anyone growing their own marijuana if it was legalized. It's a weed, and it takes nothing special to grow it. Making alcohol is much more difficult, especially tasty alcohol.

 

[Proton Soup]

I think one of the "fears" is that it *is* intoxicating and where you can have some kind of control over who can buy alcohol, there is nothing stopping anyone growing their own marijuana if it was legalized. It's a weed, and it takes nothing special to grow it. Making alcohol is much more difficult, especially tasty alcohol.

i was buying alcohol at age 15. MJ may be easier to bootleg and evade taxes on, tho.

 

[quantumdude]

I think one of the "fears" is that it *is* intoxicating and where you can have some kind of control over who can buy alcohol, there is nothing stopping anyone growing their own marijuana if it was legalized. It's a weed, and it takes nothing special to grow it. Making alcohol is much more difficult, especially tasty alcohol.

Meh. Basil and oregano are easy to grow too, but I still buy them in the store. Now if they were made illegal and the price went up to $60 per quarter ounce, then I'd be off to Sam's Club to by a UV light that very day...

 

[Evo]

Well, my point was that there would be virtually no way to have any control of an intoxicating substance.

 

[quantumdude]

Basil and oregano are intoxicating!

 

[Evo]

Basil and oregano are intoxicating!

I *knew* you were going to say that!

 

[wolram]

I used to love the black squidgy stuff, but when grass was the only thing on the affordability scene i bombed out, one has to have some standards.

 

[chasely]

I've got a roommate that smokes all the time. In fact, I think he just got done smoking. I'd say he does it on average 2-3 times per day.

I personally think it should be decriminalized. It doesn't really harm anyone. If the people that use it want to spend $250 an ounce to be lazy and listen to music, let them.

For the record, I have smoked it, but found it incredibly boring.

 

[wolram]

I prefer weed to bombs, may be leaders of states should have a toke before declaring war, but then again i will still nuke anyone that steps on my foot.

 

[binzing]

Its a tough subject. Personally I think it should be legal, but obviously within the same restrictions like DUI.

 

[mbisCool]

I got charged with possession, 650 dollar fine, 2 years probation, 6 months of outpatient, lost my financial aid for a year and had to sit in court for 15 hours over 3 separate days to speak to the judge for maybe 90 seconds total. Tell me that is not a little excessive?

As for not being able to control the distribution of marijuana. Well yes pretty much anyone can grow marijuana, but not good bud. I don't believe places such as the netherlands have a problem with this; however, i could be wrong. I know I would buy government herb...

 

[Hurkyl]

Tell me that is not a little excessive?

That is not a little excessive. (Hey, you asked. )

 

[mplayer]

I would be curious as to the figures on the amount of public money spent in like last 3 or 4 decades dealing with marijuana-related crimes. I would guess the vast majority of them would be simple possession, with a minority of actual growers/distributors. The intoxicating effects of this drug is somewhat comparable alcohol, it is as far as I know impossible to overdose on, and has the added benefit of not encouraging violent or aggressive behavior like ones that so frequently happen in alcohol-saturated situations.

There is organized crime associated with producing and distributing marijuana in many cases (domestic and abroad) but there are also plenty of domestic (nonviolent) growers that may supply a significant fraction of the demand. Both of these violent and nonviolent groups could be eliminated in the same way that organized crime associated with rum-running during prohibition was eliminated – legalize it, regulate it, and most importantly, tax it. I would assume that cigarette-like companies would jump on the opportunity and in short time be producing a quality, mass marketed product, potentially generating billions in revenue for the government (not to mention freeing up other revenue that was previously spent on keeping many nonviolent offenders in the legal system). The incentive for any regular person for growing their own marijuana plant will be about the same for any regular smoker to grow his own tobacco plant…its simply just more convenient and cost effective to buy some smokes(or mari-smokes) at the local gas station. I’m sure this argument has been made, and maybe even seems pretty reasonable to most politicians…but they do have voter bases to appeal to I guess. No, I don't smoke cigs or marijuana but I have before.

 

[WhoWee]

I think one of the "fears" is that it *is* intoxicating and where you can have some kind of control over who can buy alcohol, there is nothing stopping anyone growing their own marijuana if it was legalized. It's a weed, and it takes nothing special to grow it. Making alcohol is much more difficult, especially tasty alcohol.

Every discussion I hear focuses on smoking maijuana in the comfort of ones home...doesn't hurt anyone, keeps the person off the street, etc. The problem in society is when the smoking comes out of the closet and is mixed with other behavior such as drinking alcohol and driving a car. Drunk and stoned is a recipe for disaster behind the wheel of a car.

I do believe the penalties for possession of small quantities over the years have been too severe.

But, I hope legalization doesn't mean smoking parlors in bars (for instance).

 

[Monique]

In the Netherlands you are legally allowed to own five plants of weed (although they may be confiscated, you won't be persecuted). In my whole life I've met 1 person who I know grew and harvested his own marijuana. In total I've met 3 people who smoked a lot, but I'd say they do just fine. I'd say that alcohol abuse is a much bigger problem.

 

[TVP45]

I was at the University of Virginia when grass was decriminalized in the surrounding county for at least a year (in the 70s). The Commonwealth Attorney simply quit prosecuting users, stating he had better things to do. The local police quit arresting users since there was no point. The Feds and the State Police still could have prosecuted users, but they were interested only in dealers.

Anyway, it was sort of odd to see people standing next to a police officer, toking up without any concern. The interesting thing is that it didn't seem to make any difference. I, for example, didn't use before and I didn't start. I was barely hanging on in grad school and couldn't afford to wipe out any brain cells, even temporarily.

But, this was before the potent forms of marijuana hit the streets. Most of the stuff then available was little different from a catnip/oregano mixture. I doubt it set anyone up for stronger drugs; more likely it just led to an occassional COPD case.

But, I strongly suspect (anecdotal evidence only!) that it lowered the inhibitions against drug use among teens and pre-teens and, if so, that's undesirable. As a society, we'd be better off to err on the side of caution.

 

[Monique]

But, I strongly suspect (anecdotal evidence only!) that it lowered the inhibitions against drug use among teens and pre-teens and, if so, that's undesirable. As a society, we'd be better off to err on the side of caution.

Actually a major reason to legalize (or condone) marijuana and other soft-drugs, is to prevent people from getting into contact with real drug dealers who will sell you hard-drugs. I don't have the statistics, but I think that in the Netherlands we have far less drug-related problems than other countries such as the United States (based on documentaries I have seen in the past).

 

[WhoWee]

I guess to be fair we could legalize marijuana and shoot heroin dealers on site?

I was in Pittsburgh a few years ago and found myself in close proximity to a conference of restaurant/tavern/bar owners who were holding some kind of a conference at a hotel.

During their break I engaged with a group of them regarding the effects of Clinton's Crime Bill. All of them complained that it hurt business.

One member said he counted the number of DUI's that he was aware of and the count had exceeded 300 people in his river town.

Another said the local counties were rewarded with $1.million each for their "results" in battling DUI.

Then one of them said something interesting. He commented that "cocaine saved lives" and that pot was dangerous. I questioned him and found that a few of the others agreed with him.

Their logic was as follows. On Friday night, their patrons cashed pay checks and headed to the bars. On average the "regulars" would spend about $20 eachand drink 6 to 12 beers (some power drinkers might knock back 20+). Some of their patrons would also smoke pot and become very slow moving...unresponsive...very likely to have trouble driving. They were an easy target for DUI enforcements.

On the other hand, the customers who also spent $20 on cocaine were able to drink more without falling down or stumbling and didn't lose their motor skills. They claimed the people snorting cocaine were able to drive without difficulty and people smoking pot often needed assistance or were arrested for DUI.

Their conclusion was that cocine was good for business and pot was bad. On a side note, they also admitted people taking cocaine were more likely to play their video poker machines longer and more enthusiastically and that people smoking pot were more likely to stare at the screen longer without pressing the buttons.

I don't have a point...just wanted to share the story/observation.

Different chemical reactions yield different results.

 

[mgb_phys]

On the other hand cocaine is directly responsible for 80s pop music.

 

[WhoWee]

We might be overlooking an opportunity to solve multiple problems.

What if we 1.) acquire/merge/absorb/conquer/adopt Mexico, 2.) take military action against the drug cartels, 3.) set up growers co-ops (marijuana and cocaine), 4.) establish a franchise distribution network along with a tax template, 5.) sell/license the export rights to (cut the UN into offset our debt there) all of the developed countries, 6.) hiremarketing firms to define/promote our brand worldwide, 7.) establish an anti-competition network worldwide, 8.) spread the wealth to all Americans?

It's time for CHANGE!

 

[binzing]

We might be overlooking an opportunity to solve multiple problems.

What if we 1.) acquire/merge/absorb/conquer/adopt Mexico, 2.) take military action against the drug cartels, 3.) set up growers co-ops (marijuana and cocaine), 4.) establish a franchise distribution network along with a tax template, 5.) sell/license the export rights to (cut the UN into offset our debt there) all of the developed countries, 6.) hiremarketing firms to define/promote our brand worldwide, 7.) establish an anti-competition network worldwide, 8.) spread the wealth to all Americans?

It's time for CHANGE!

Thats not going to happen...

As far as the coops, sure for pot, if its legalized but cocaine has no good use, so we don't really need to grow coca plants.

 

[ThomasT]

First off let me state I would like to keep this within the forum guidelines.

In essence I'm trying to start a discussion on the topic. I would like to hear your honest opinions and rational. Are the penalties for marijuana possession/use within reason? Should marijuana be decriminalized?

Of course it should be decriminalized. Eventually all of the 'vices' will be. It's just a matter of educating people.

Governments make lots of money from state run gambling enterprises, and taxes on alcoholic beverages and cigarettes.

The argument that keeping marijuana and other drugs illegal restricts their use isn't a very good one, imo. Maybe it does to a certain extent. I don't know. But suppose overall use goes up, say, 5% to 10%. That's preferable to the damage to society that the continued criminalization of these things has caused.

Anyway, I don't know of any particular reason to think that usage would increase. Illegal drugs are easy enough to get. People that 'need' these things will find a way to get them -- and people that don't aren't suddenly going to become drug users.

 

[Hurkyl]

That's preferable to the damage to society that the continued criminalization of these things has caused.

What evidence is this claim based on? What facts are being used? How are the facts being evaluated?

 

[mbisCool]

Allowing marijuana to be sold via the black market sadly puts many kids in harm's way. I know a girl who was hit in the face and robbed of several hundred dollars by a dealer.

And to be honest I would argue that it may be even easier to get marijuana in many places easier when it is illegal. As long as it's illegal it will be very profitable, and only a phone call away. At least for alcohol they can ID you. It is certainly easier in washington to find drugs than find someone to buy you alcohol.

 

[mgb_phys]

Isn't that a George Carlin routine?
In Canada prescription drugs are very cheap but street drugs are more expensive.
While in the USA illegal drugs are much cheaper and more easily available than prescriptions.
The obvious solution is to make prescription drugs illegal!

 

[Ivan Seeking]

While in the USA illegal drugs are much cheaper and more easily available than prescriptions.

Really? Easier to get; probably. But cheaper?

 

[Monique]

Some facts, the Netherlands (2005, age group 15-64) vs USA (2006, age group 12 and older)

Cannabis
ever used: 23% vs 40%
recently used: 5% vs 10%
currently using: 3% vs 6%

Cocaine:
ever used: 3.4% vs 14.3%
recently used: 0.6% vs 2.5%

Source: http://www.minvws.nl/kamerstukken/vgp/2008/nationale-drug-monitor-2007.asp (p. 47 and 69)

Surprising? Draw your own conclusions. Education might also have something to do with those numbers. Personally I think it is better to buy things from a trusted seller who must abide to regulations, than from someone on the street. I've never used marijuana, so I belong to the 77% of people in the Netherlands.

More information can be found here: http://www.emcdda.europa.eu/publications/searchresults?action=list&type=PUBLICATIONS&SERIES_PUB=w36

 

[mgb_phys]

Quick historical survey :

marijuana

cocaine

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/a1/Queen_Victoria_-Golden_Jubilee_-3a_cropped.JPG/210px-Queen_Victoria_-Golden_Jubilee_-3a_cropped.JPG Opium

Alcohol

EVERYTHING

 

[The Dagda]

I was watching a program the other day and they were saying traditional cannabis plants that aren't genetically engineered (like the ones you might buy in a new age shop) actually have more of an anti-psychotic drug in than the super strains you generally get illegally now. Which is interesting, as well as ironic. They actually grow these strains to extract the drug.

Personally considering just how dangerous alcohol and cigarettes are I have no problem with it's legalisation any more or decriminilisation. Your more likely to suffer from psychological problems from heavy drinking than heavy cannabis use, and your certainly much, much, much more likely to die from imbibing either. Also the level of crime due to alcohol is much higher than cannabis, which is associated with it mainly being illegal. I don't smoke it so I don't really care all that much, but it does seem to me to be ridiculously demonized considering how harmful it really is.

 

[mgb_phys]

but it does seem to me to be ridiculously demonized considering how harmful it really is.

Ecstasy is a class A drug in the UK (highest possible classification - automatic jail term etc) total deaths cause = zero.
But there were two photogenic newsworthy young girls that died after taking it.
One died of an undiagnosed heart condition the other died from water poisoning, she had drunk so many bottles of mineral water (because it's healthy) that she died from salt imbalance.

 

[binzing]

I don't really care all that much, but it does seem to me to be ridiculously demonized considering how harmful it really is.

Like the fact that as a Schedule I drug its right next to heroin, I find that absurd.

 

[Monique]

Ecstasy is a class A drug in the UK (highest possible classification - automatic jail term etc) total deaths cause = zero.

XTC is considered a hard drugs in the Netherlands as well and is thus prohibited (although you can legally test pills at parties = control). Use can lead to over-heating/dehydration, depressions. It is risky to use in combination with alcohol and medication, as well as in combination with medical conditions such as heart disease, diabetes and epilepsy. Deaths are known to occur.

http://english.justitie.nl/images/The Netherlands Policy on XTC_tcm35-127570.pdf.

 

[mgb_phys]

Deaths are known to occur.

I wonder if any deaths have been caused by the compound rather than existing conditions?
If you blame deaths from cardiovascular problems, exhaustion or epilepsy then you might as well prohibit most sports.
It's interesting the opposite standards taken, anyone who says a prescription drug is dangerous is sued and hounded out of their post and vilified for creating a panic, as is any doctor who claims an illegal drug is harmless.

 

[Loren Booda]

The marijuana which gave me addictive pleasure at first - for six years - provided me access to harder drugs, including LSD. After the acid I toked six more years, but achieved little pleasant sensation, instead smoking out of habit, only to feel all of the disturbing effects of marijuana. It was not until I quit pot that I finally reached a sense of normalcy. I could well be homeless if I hadn't. Now, 25 years later, the hardest drug I ingest is chocolate.

By the way, I received a diagnosis of paranoid schizophrenia 6 months after my LSD experience. I now have the diagnosis of schizoaffective disorder, bipolar type.

Marijuana has recently been shown in an English study to significantly increase the incidence of psychoses in habitual users. I have seen elsewhere that 20% of users become habitual.

 

[turbo]

Marijuana has recently been shown in an English study to significantly increase the incidence of psychoses in habitual users. I have seen elsewhere that 20% of users become habitual.

Got some references? It can be claimed that some percentage of peanut-butter consumers as kids grow up to be long-term peanut-butter abusers. Peanut-butter sandwiches, Thai sauces, ants on a log... The devastation is extensive.

 

[Ivan Seeking]

It is clear to me that drug laws don't work and they cost the taxpayers billions. The rest is irrelevant.

When we had a family member with a hard-drug problem, we could have had him arrested, which would have cost the taxpayers $40k a year [or whatever it was in California to keep him in jail] and certainly would have ruined his life. Or, we could do nothing but try to handle it. We couldn't afford to send him through a drug treatment program.

 

[Proton Soup]

Thats not going to happen...

As far as the coops, sure for pot, if its legalized but cocaine has no good use, so we don't really need to grow coca plants.

it's a decent anesthetic. it used to be sold over the counter as toothache drops.

the columbians for centuries also chewed the leaves to stave off hunger and as a mild stimulant while they labored.

i'm not sure i'd agree there are many useless drugs, just bad uses. even one OTC product has a form of methamphetamine in it.

 

[Loren Booda]

Yesterday I heard that cannabis use increases the incidence of testicular cancer. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cannabis+"testicular+cancer"&btnG=Search"

 

[binzing]

it's a decent anesthetic. it used to be sold over the counter as toothache drops.

the columbians for centuries also chewed the leaves to stave off hunger and as a mild stimulant while they labored.

i'm not sure i'd agree there are many useless drugs, just bad uses. even one OTC product has a form of methamphetamine in it.

True.

Hell Adderall (sp?) IS meth.

 

[mbisCool]

adderal IS amphetamine but not methamphetamine

I just think its unfortunate. There is so much misinformation regarding the effects and dangers of marijuana. To be honest no argument againsts marijuana seems justified when we have perscription drugs, alcohol, and tobacco which account for unprecedented hardships.

 

[Monique]

Yesterday I heard that cannabis use increases the incidence of testicular cancer. http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=cannabis+"testicular+cancer"&btnG=Search"

At this point that is still a hypothesis. Smoking tobacco increases the incidence of lung cancer and it very addictive, but apparently that is socially accepted.

 

[mbisCool]

Hempfest in Seattle, Washington drew a crowd of around 150,000 this last August over A weekend.