News Is Obama fueling the Gate's incident?

[j93]

Again, don't tell the police how to do their job.

Repeating your statement doesn't make it any truer. As Evo provided a more reasonable argument. However a request for mail to be given doesn't over step any legal bounds..

 

[waht]

Gates' suspicious and bizarre behaviour, refusing to furnish identifiaction made for a very suuspicius situation, a school ID card that we have no idea how good the photo was as far as making identification possible, I think them calling campus security to make a positive ID was th only sensible thing to do. Why would an innocent homeowner put up such a fight? It makes no sense. For all the poilce know, the real homeoner is being murdered in another part of the house.

Exactly, there could be so many different scenarios. Gates should have identified himself calmly and explain his situation, instead of venting from the start.

If a cop entered my house out of nowhere, I would assume something is going on in the neigborhood, and would cooperate, and answer any questions.

 

[turbo]

What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.

I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.

 

[j93]

You're right. You know how the police should do their jobs. The same way you know enough facts about the case to be outraged.

I posted the police report while you have posted unrelated video and repeated the "dont tell the police how to do their job" argument.

 

[russ_watters]

Did Gates have any input to the police report? Are police reports always honest and accurate?

Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good?

I would be VERY ticked off if the cops accosted me in my own home, and I doubt that the resultant police report would reflect well on me.

I tend to think I am more level-headed than that, but I certainly wouldn't fault someone for being upset in that case (I said so in my post). But by the next day, I would hope you would have calmed down enough to apologize for those actions that didn't "reflect well on" you. Gates didn't do that.

The fact that a police officer arrested a black scholar in his own home in a nice neighborhood in Cambridge seems lost on you.

And could you explain precisely why that matters?

The fact that the officer is an expert in racial profiling...

Um, I think you misunderstood that one too - he's an expert in avoiding racial profiling. I can't believe that after all the bad press about racial profiling, you'd think cops would actually teach how to do it! Please, turbo - use some logical thought!

 

[Cyrus]

What is wrong with police acting as adults, backing down when there is no apparent threat, and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report? I have many friends in law enforcement and a few relatives, and I would expect that level of conduct from each of them.

I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.

And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?

 

[russ_watters]

And why did the cop radio for the Harvard cops and not just drop the incident and leave? Gates was a professor in his own house being accosted by a Cambridge cop. Why should he have to explain himself to Harvard cops?

Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.

 

[j93]

Well I guess if we assume the cop was lying, we can assume anything we want happened. I assume an allien spacecraft teleported him through the locked door so he didn't have to break in. Sound good?

This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.

 

[russ_watters]

Yes and still does not change the previous comment because
the reasons still apply ,once they knew there was not a burglary occurring they had no business at the house other than to help escalate the situation.

What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.

 

[Cyrus]

I would like to ad, a UID is NOT a valid legal form of ID. I have sat through a class by the county liquor board. It's the first thing they tell you. A UID doesn't mean JACK to a police officer.

 

[turbo]

And you know the cop did not act as an adult how?

Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?

 

[Cyrus]

This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.

Gates word doesn't mean a thing against that of a police officers in a court of law.

 

[turbo]

Again, turbo, read the report. The Harvard cops were called for the professor's benefit, not for the cop's. The Harvard ID didn't have his address on it and the cop called them both to help verify it was his house and because Gates would rather deal with them than the city cop.

I read the report. Calling the Harvard police was a further imposition on Professor Gates. The Cambridge cops already knew who he was. Certainly, the Harvard cops already knew who he was.

 

[Cyrus]

Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?

Sorry they didn't have the gold plated Rolls Royce for him.

The problem is your statement "as far as I know", falls short of reality. I look white, and even I don't mouth off to cops.

 

[russ_watters]

As stated in the previous post I read the police report too and there was no mention of physical threat by Gates nor a threat to police property no mention of anything of calling the police racist.

Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.

 

[j93]

What you missed in the police report is where it says that the Harvard ID didn't have his address on it. So it was not helpful in determining it wasn't a burglary. The cop says he believed that Gates was the owner of his house, but it was his job to actually verify it.

Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.

 

[russ_watters]

Check the mail (ask for mail) combined with Harvard ID. Robert Gates is receiving mail at this address.

Wouldn't a driver's license be just as good as asking for the mail...and more in line with standard operating procedure?

 

[Cyrus]

Didnt miss that, much of the rest of the post discussed common sense methods to determine occupancy like having photos of around, or maybe seeing a document with name on the harvard ID or asking for a piece of mail.

Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?

 

[j93]

Read it again, this time focusing on lines 6-8 on page 2, where the cop quotes one accusation of racism directly and refers to several others without quoting them.

oops I meant "other than" in that quote you posted that why I then continued to mention why the police don't go around arresting people for making pig noises because it would be petty and impractical and would only fit under disorderly conduct , too many resources used not worth the paperwork.

 

[j93]

Why does that matter, considering that's not the reason why he was arrested?

Not sure why I am responding but that was obviously in response to russ watters comment on ID not having the address.

 

[russ_watters]

I'm recalling the recent back flip rationalizations used by Judge Sotomayor to distance herself from the 'wise Latina' comments, and everyone happy to give her the benefit of the doubt: 'slow down, slow down, look at her record.' Then I reread this transcript, see the condemnation of a cop and immediate connection to racism by the President. Now I'm angry.

Dam right it does, thanks in no small part to you.

I was meaning to bring that up for discussion in that thread about her... strangely that thread died when the confirmation hearings began. She looked really bad in them. Yeah, this is more of what Obama is all about. The reason I said this would affect him in 3 years is that in his last election, he was successfuly able to argue that he didn't buy into Pastor's beliefs by flip-flopping on his longtime friend and mentor and rejecting him. Far fetched to say the least, but it worked. Here, he has no such out: this time, it is his own words that will be on the Republican commercials.

 

[j93]

Wouldn't a driver's license be just as good as asking for the mail...and more in line with standard operating procedure?

Another option as well ,but putting little things together that don't invlve more queries would help speed things along and aid in moving on to the next call.

 

[russ_watters]

What is wrong with police acting as adults

This cop acted perfectly professionally.

...backing down when there is no apparent threat...

He did!

...and apologizing for disrupting the life of an ordinary citizen when they have acted appropriatley to what turned out to be a mistaken report?

Sorry, but being an arrogant *** makes Gates unworthy of an apology. If Gates had acted like an adult, he would have been treated like one. Instead, he was treated with a level of respect somewhat lower, but still far greater than he deserved.

I have a biker-buddy who was the head of training for the Mass State Police, and he would have been all over that Cambridge cop for escalating what should have been a routine check-in, check-out call.

There is nothign in that report that implies escalation by the cop. The cop's first response was bewilderment at Gate's irate reaction. He did all he could to defuse the situation.

 

[russ_watters]

This is true but any logical person would assume what happened it lies in Officer Crowley's account or Gates' account or more likely somewhere in between.

I am more likely to believe the person who was rational during the incident.

Odds are, we'll get some more evidence on this anyway, as the officer was talking on the radio and there were a bunch of witnesses. We'll see - but try to be logical about where you place your bet.

 

[russ_watters]

I read the report. Calling the Harvard police was a further imposition on Professor Gates. The Cambridge cops already knew who he was.

The Cambridge cops did not know that it was his house because he did not (until later) provide an ID with an address.

Certainly, the Harvard cops already knew who he was.

Exactly - that's why it was to Gates benefit to call them!

 

[turbo]

This cop acted perfectly professionally. He did! Sorry, but being an arrogant *** makes Gates unworthy of an apology. If Gates had acted like an adult, he would have been treated like one. Instead, he was treated with a level of respect somewhat lower, but still far greater than he deserved.
There is nothign in that report that implies escalation by the cop. The cop's first response was bewilderment at Gate's irate reaction. He did all he could to defuse the situation.

If you take all the cop's reports at face-value and totally discount Gate's account, you could conceivably come to this conclusion. I'm not so gullible. I have been treated like a second-class citizen and been shaken down by cops before based solely on my appearance. If you think that the cop's description of the incident is 100% accurate and 100% favorable to him, you might need a reality check. Police-work can be touchy, and cops have been known to pad their reports to protect themselves from legal action. Or maybe you didn't know that...

 

[russ_watters]

Another option as well ,but putting little things together that don't invlve more queries would help speed things along and aid in moving on to the next call.

What? What do you mean "more queries"? How is asking for a driver's license "more queries" than asking to see his mail? Each is one! And keep in mind, the only reason the officer needed a second form of ID is that Gates provided an insufficient one in the first query.

 

[russ_watters]

If you take all the cop's reports at face-value and totally discount Gate's account, you could conceivably come to this conclusion. I'm not so gullible...

Personally, I think someone who takes at face value the word of someone who they acknowledge acted improperly is being gullible. But that's just me. Put another way, the only reason (besides your clear, strong personal bias) that you don't believe the cop is the word of someone who you acknowledge acted improperly.

...oh, and while we're at it: where can I read Gates' full report on the incident? By reading his full account, we can see if it is self-consistent and see exactly how it differs from the officer's.

 

[turbo]

BTW, when I was shaken-down by the Orono cop in 1970, I had a driver's license, a UMO ID, a campus meal-program card, and other stuff that was pretty solid evidence that I was a student (engineering track at the time) and still that jerk was intent on shaking me down with NO evidence or probable cause.

I hadn't done anything wrong or suspicious, but I was guilty of having long hair late at night with a suspicious guitar case in my hand while I was freezing my fri**ing butt off trying to get home.

 

[russ_watters]

...oh, and while we're at it: where can I read Gates' full report on the incident? By reading his full account, we can see if it is self-consistent and see exactly how it differs from the officer's.

...Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!

Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

 

[Cyrus]

BTW, when I was shaken-down by the Orono cop in 1970, I had a driver's license, a UMO ID, a campus meal-program card, and other stuff that was pretty solid evidence that I was a student (engineering track at the time) and still that jerk was intent on shaking me down with NO evidence or probable cause.

I hadn't done anything wrong or suspicious, but I was guilty of having long hair late at night with a suspicious guitar case in my hand while I was freezing my fri**ing butt off trying to get home.

Relevant, why?

Side: Back in summer of 69' my friends were cruizin in the old el camino when we saw this guy on the side of the road. We offered him a ride and then bla bla bla bla bla ...good god turbo. These meaningless stories never end. The next one will be about how you made a living singing in your local bar.

Gates isn't some long haired hippie with a guitar case living in a small country town. Those were not small country side cops. He doesn't live in a ghetto.

 

[TheStatutoryApe]

Nope not a fact, read the report it is basically one long detailed account and a short gloss of events by the other officer.

The second officer's report is what is called a 'supplemental report'. He was not the officer in charge of the situation and so his report required nothing more than for him to discribe what he personally observed of the incident. The contents of his report then is apparently all he personally observed.

Also, writing falsing information in a police or witness report is not only agianst department rules it is against the law and you can go to jail for it. If the police report is at all accurate then there are several witnesses to what occurred outside of the residence (which is what he was arrested for) and any falsification could easily be found out and the officer would lose his job at a minimum.


I've personally been on both sides of this sort of situation. I've dealt with jerk cops that want to give you a hard time and find reasons to get you in trouble and I have been the guy getting yelled at and called a racist for nothing more than doing my job.

Just a few weeks ago I found an apartment door busted in and a man inside the apartment. This intoxicated parolee I found inside someone elses apartment with a busted in door was nicer, more polite, and had more sense than a Harvard Professor in his own home apparently.

Wether or not the man really should have been arrested is a hard call for not having been there. From what I have read I would mostly side with the officer.

 

[Cyrus]

...Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!

Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Russ, just give them warnings to post using facts and sources. It will save you and me a lot of headache dealing with them.

 

[russ_watters]

So I was wrong, we do have at least a little to go on from Gates: Here's a statement by Gate's lawyer and an interview Gates did: http://www.theroot.com/views/lawyers-statement-arrest-henry-louis-gates-jr

http://www.theroot.com/views/skip-gates-speaks

Now the thing that stands out the most of about Gate's account is that it is much thinner than the officer's. It doesn't specifically disagree with what the officer said because much of what is in the police report could simply fit in the holes in Gates' account. But both Gates' and the lawyers' accounts reads like a sanitized version of what he seems to understand was a moment of anger for him. In particular, the lawyer's account makes it sound like they were having a near-friendly chat at the end of the encounter, and then he was suddenly arrested! Obviously, that can be explored by talking to the witnesses. I'm wondering if there is any recourse against Gates if it can be proven he is making false statements about the incident.

One key difference is that the officer says he was present when the phone call to Harvard was made. Gates implies he made the call before the officer arrived. That should be easy to verify, but in any case, it isn't that important.

 

[waht]

...Oh, wait, that's right: no such thing exists!

Here's a CNN report that contains snippets of a statement by Gates' lawer. If you listen carefully, you'll notice they don't disagree with the officer's account at all. http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/07/22/gates.arrest.reaction/index.html#cnnSTCVideo

Interestingly, why does CNN title this "The 'unfathomable' arrest of a black scholar"

 

[Cyrus]

Interestingly, why does CNN title this "The 'unfathomable' arrest of a black scholar"

Are you kidding me? CNN is a joke. They care more about playing with their touchscreen montiors than getting the news right.

 

[waht]

Are you kidding me? CNN is a joke. They care more about playing with their touchscreen montiors than getting the news right.

yea and 3D holograms

 

[Cyrus]

yea and 3D holograms

Do they have holograms now too? Every time I watch CNN, I'm like "stop playing with the damn touch screens and just report the news!"

It's to the point where they just show off their glitzy and glamorous flat screens, and report highly speculative stories. It's a step above tabloids.

 

[waht]

The CNN holoroom

It's to the point where they just show off their glitzy and glamorous flat screens, and report highly speculative stories. It's a step above tabloids.

agreed

 

[Evo]

Check the news. Taking a Harvard professor out of his own house in handcuffs? Come on. Even you should be able to see how ridiculous that is. As far as I know, when you are being harassed in the US (by a private citizen or a public official) it is not a crime to raise a ruckus. What happened to personal freedoms?

He left his house and came after the police. Do you see how ridiculous he was? Not to mention that what he did was reason to arrest him. He was harrassing the police. Seriously turbo, read the report and stop making stuff up.

 

[j93]

One key difference is that the officer says he was present when the phone call to Harvard was made. Gates implies he made the call before the officer arrived. That should be easy to verify, but in any case, it isn't that important.

17 Ware St is likely typically serviced by Harvard would explain why Gates is used to calling Harvard Police and dealing with Harvard Police.

Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse

 

[j93]

Russ, just give them warnings to post using facts and sources. It will save you and me a lot of headache dealing with them.

theres a huge difference between your posts and his.

Russ_watters - An argument with relevant links and an opinion based on his experiences and logic with at worst a possible jab here and there

Your posts are the same minus the relevant links or an argument .
Just shallow jabs and Bare assertion arguments.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bare_assertion_fallacy

 

[jgens]

Out of curiosity are police required to provide name and badge number. Shouldnt they be due to accountability? This is a general reponse

Depends on where you live as far as I know. In NYC it's required: http://www.nyc.gov/html/ccrb/pdf/nmshldanalysis4pg.pdf

It's hard to imagine that it wouldn't be required for a police officer to present his/her badge.

 

[j93]

It also makes it easier for people to impersonate an officer if don't need to identify oneself.

 

[Hans de Vries]

Gates looks like a pompous, arrogant fool.

I don't feel that way. How about simply overly paranoid and overly sensitive...

The cop that arrested Gates is supposedly an expert in racial profiling.

Apparently they never studied the case of how to handle a black Harvard professor.


I think one should consider the stress on a police officer having to enter (on his own)
a place where a suspected burglary is going on by possible armed robbers. Risking his
live to prevent the robbery of the tv-set and the stereo set...

You might call this brave but in many countries police corps don't require, and won't
even allow, a police officer on his own to take such risks, and would not take action
without considerable reinforcement on the scene.


Regards, Hans

 

[turbo]

He left his house and came after the police. Do you see how ridiculous he was? Not to mention that what he did was reason to arrest him. He was harrassing the police. Seriously turbo, read the report and stop making stuff up.

I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.

Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer.

 

[Astronuc]

I'm not making stuff up, nor have I the ability to control the photos in the news. Have you seen the photos of his arrest? There were at least 4 cops surrounding him and he was in handcuffs in the doorway of his house, after he has already identified himself. Then they hauled him into take mug-shots that are also available on the 'web. I think you'd be pretty upset to have law-enforcement officers treat you that way in your own home.

Edit: BTW, Crowley told Gates that he would only talk to him outside the house, so if Gates followed him out onto the porch, it was a reasonable concession to the officer.

If Gates had simply followed the officer outside, and 'quietly' talked to the officer, there would have been no arrest.

Gates was arrested for yelling at the police officer out in public (disorderly conduct). If stood on the side of the road ranting and raving in public, I'd be arrested too, even if I ran inside my house. One's home is not an automatic sanctuary, if one flees for the scene of one's crime.

It appears Gates automatically assumes the 'white' cop is harrassing him because he (Gates) is African-American. All Gates had to do was provide proof of who he was in a quiet and calm manner, and not go ballistic on the officer. The officer was doing his job (responding to a reported break-in) according to procedures. The officer is not responsible for the fact that the witness apparently reported 'two black males with backpacks'.

And in any event, the OP is about Obama's comments, which were unfortunate, given that Obama didn't know the facts/details. Obama was wrong, and he should apologize to Crowley and the Cambridge Police Department.

Meanwhile - Mass. police unions ask Obama for apology
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090724/ap_on_re_us/us_harvard_scholar_arresting_office

 

[turbo]

I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too. IMO, the officer should have apologized for the mistaken charge and disengaged, even if the professor was "ranting and raving", instead of escalating the situation to an arrest, charge, and booking. After all, how many burglars are 58-59 years old and plying their trade in broad daylight in a nice neighborhood? Yeah, Crowley was probably embarrassed by getting dressed down, but that's no reason to arrest the professor. The officer's escalation of the situation (vs disengagement) was immature, IMO. I do not hold Gates blameless if he indeed verbally abused the officers, but the offense should be tempered by the context. He had returned from a trip abroad and was sick (and probably tired), and was unable to get into his house. Then he gets rousted by some Cambridge cops for trying to get into his own house.

I don't think that Obama owes the police union an apology because he's right. The situation should have been resolved quietly, and the arrest, booking, mug shots, etc, amounted to an insult on the professor that was unwarranted, given the circumstances. He was just trying to get into his own house, after all. I have quite a number of close friends and relatives who are in law enforcement. Given the very rural nature of this state and the paucity of back-up, the troopers, wardens, and sheriffs here are pretty darned diplomatic on the whole.

Here's an example: My friend and musical partner called one Sunday morning to tell me that he had been picked up for operating under the influence and that he would be losing his licence, which would put a stop to our ability to perform as a duo all over the state. He was pretty distraught, so I drove up to his place to keep him company for a bit, and the arresting officer (a state trooper) stopped in at his apartment to see how he was doing. The trooper lived in town, and wanted to make sure that Tim was OK. The trooper retired from the state police and ran for county sheriff. One of the best sheriffs we have ever had. These officers work alone - they are tough as they need to be, and as reasonable and diplomatic as they need to be.

 

[mheslep]

... Here, he has no such out: this time, it is his own words that will be on the Republican commercials.

I'd be inclined to agree but Obama has some of the same 'teflon' qualities that Reagan had.

 

[Evo]

I see your point, Astro, though I would have been really upset at being accosted in my own home, too.

Stop making things up. He wasn't accosted. They went up to his front door and asked him for an ID because there had been a report of a break in. Where on Earth do you get "being accosted" out of that? He was the one that verbally accosted the police. Anyone with any amount of common sense would have simply given proper ID to the police, realizing that they are doing this to protect him in the event someone had indeed broken into his house. They would have to ask any person for their ID in this circumstance.

I feel Obama should make an apology for making a stupid inflammatory remark. I think that before this is all over, Obama will have to, he was out of line. What happened to "I can't comment since I don't know what happened"?